Flying Slow

What is fun is using that same set of conditions, and landing with
virtually zero ground roll. I've won more than a few beers that I could
land and stop short within the wingspan of the airplane (C150-172).
Selway Kid

Rob Montgomery wrote:

Where abouts are you? Someone may know of a good place. If all else fails,
ask a few CFI's where they did their spin training. Unfortunately, a lot
of schools (the one I work at included) have to prohibit spins in their
aircraft due to the price of new gyros. :-( Consequently, CFI spin
training is usually outsourced.

-Rob

No spin training where I got my PPL, so I visited a friend - exF4, F16 and
CFI - who was happy to train me in spins. I had heard that you can't spin
150's due to the gyros, but that was 25 years prior to my spin training. So
I asked him about it and he said it was not a problem - now give me a 4
turn spin (this in a 152).....

So I must need more info about this gyro limitation to truly understand
it....What conditions/gyro/airplane etc. should one avoid doing spins to
prevent gyro problems?

thanks

--
Saville

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm

On 14 Jan 2005 21:31:49 -0800, wrote:

What is fun is using that same set of conditions, and landing with
virtually zero ground roll. I've won more than a few beers that I could
land and stop short within the wingspan of the airplane (C150-172).
Selway Kid


Care to elaborate? I've not pushed that far into the envelop,
especially close to the ground, and would think a 150 wouldn't have
enough power to hang on the prop without a high descent rate.

I did get to be in the plane (J-3) once with one of the people I most
respect in aviation (and know personally) where from 2000 feet, he
entered a slip, asked me where I wanted the plane, and flew - in the
slip, and I swear below stall speed - all the way to the ground and
put the plane right on the mark I asked for. It was one of the most
amazing demonstrations of flying I'd ever seen....Even better than his
no hands landings.

I only offer the story thinking perhaps you're technique is somewhat
similar.

TIA for any response.
z

"zatatime" wrote in message
...
On 14 Jan 2005 21:31:49 -0800, wrote:

What is fun is using that same set of conditions, and landing with
virtually zero ground roll. I've won more than a few beers that I could
land and stop short within the wingspan of the airplane (C150-172).
Selway Kid

Care to elaborate? I've not pushed that far into the envelop,
especially close to the ground, and would think a 150 wouldn't have
enough power to hang on the prop without a high descent rate.


My CFI's done this in my 172 which probably has a power/weight ratio close
to the 150's. It's about the difference between MCA and wind speed. A 172
with two people and no bags can probably stall power-on around 40kts. I
don't know the speed exactly but it is quite slow. If the wind is blowing
30kts you can put it down on the ground at less than 15mph groundspeed. Then
stand on the brakes and turn off at the runway entrance, for a landing roll
of about 100'. With higher windspeeds you could do it in less.

My current instructor is kind of like your friend- thousands of hours in
172s and flies them like he's part bird. It is a beautiful thing to behold.

-cwk.

Z
Think about it....the airplane cares not about the wind...only how fast
its going thru the air! If you have the aircraft slowed to say 40 IAS
regardless of how you arrived at that steady speed, and you have a 40kt
wind blowing, you can literally hover over one spot. If you continue to
descend using power for your altitude control, you should be able to
maneuver the aircraft to the desired touchdown spot, reduce the power
and touchdown with no forward roll or drama.
How else can you make a really REALLY short field landing unless a wind
is blowing?
I enjoy flying a 180 slip to a touchdown on a spot from abeam in the
pattern. Lots of fun and good practice. I get a lot of satisfaction
doing it in a Stearman in particular.
I've won a lot of wagers doing the no hands landings usually in the
C-172 with judicious use of power and trim for pitch, and of course
rudder for directional. That too is rather simple once you have been in
the airplane to see how it's done.
Thanks and Cheers
Ol Shy & Bashful

Trent
You'd be surprised how many pilots have never tried flying without the
ASI. I often cover it up and assign a speed to show them they can get
pretty close (within 5) just by sound. I learned that from my primary
instructor in the 50's. Later I tried the same thing with the altimeter
in the pattern and was quite surprised at how close you can get there
too.
No reason not to learn something new all the time and add it to your
bag of tricks and skills. Never know when it might save your life?!
Enjoy your flying time. Nothing else like it and you are part of a very
special group of people.
Cheers
Ol S&B

Gregg
Back 25 years ago, the gyros would tumble at extreme attitudes which
caused undue wear and tear on them...thus, the avoidance of regular
spins and training. Now the gyros are much more advanced and can
withstand the attitudes without tearing them up. Oddly enough, they are
now called Non-Tumble gyros.....
It has been my experience flight schools avoid the spin training
because they have few who are capable of doing it safely or their
insurance company precludes it. Might be a combination of the two but I
think its more the lack of ability or perhaps fear? on the part of the
CFI's. Even the schools who had the C150 "Aerobat" only had one or two
CFI's who were allowed to do spins with them. I thnk its a damned
shame.
Cheers
Ol S&B

If the wind is blowing
30kts you can put it down on the ground at less than 15mph groundspeed.

Ever slower/shorter with the doors open. It is fun to backup traffic on final
with both doors open as speed brakes. Both front seaters need to coordinate the
door 'extension' angle to balance the lateral drag.
VL

wrote:

S&B,

Gregg
Back 25 years ago, the gyros would tumble at extreme attitudes which
caused undue wear and tear on them...thus, the avoidance of regular
spins and training. Now the gyros are much more advanced and can
withstand the attitudes without tearing them up. Oddly enough, they are
now called Non-Tumble gyros.....

Ah I see. Thanks for the explanation.

It has been my experience flight schools avoid the spin training
because they have few who are capable of doing it safely or their
insurance company precludes it. Might be a combination of the two but I
think its more the lack of ability or perhaps fear? on the part of the
CFI's. Even the schools who had the C150 "Aerobat" only had one or two
CFI's who were allowed to do spins with them. I thnk its a damned
shame.

Not sure of the reason, around here, though there are heavy discussions
about it in various flying magazines. One was in the AOPA Flight Training
mag in the latter half of last year. Sometimes the debate gets heated, in
the newsgroups.

But I figured if I wasn't going to get it for my PPL training I'd go out
and get it for myself. So I did.


thanks

Cheers
Ol S&B

--
Saville

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm

"zatatime" wrote in message ...
On 14 Jan 2005 21:31:49 -0800, wrote:

What is fun is using that same set of conditions, and landing with
virtually zero ground roll. I've won more than a few beers that I could
land and stop short within the wingspan of the airplane (C150-172).
Selway Kid


Care to elaborate? I've not pushed that far into the envelop,
especially close to the ground, and would think a 150 wouldn't have
enough power to hang on the prop without a high descent rate.


You are not hanging on the prop, you are opposing the headwind. It all depends on where you are in the drag bucket. If
the wind was strong enough, you could 'cruise' backwards...

I did get to be in the plane (J-3) once with one of the people I most
respect in aviation (and know personally) where from 2000 feet, he
entered a slip, asked me where I wanted the plane, and flew - in the
slip, and I swear below stall speed - all the way to the ground and
put the plane right on the mark I asked for. It was one of the most
amazing demonstrations of flying I'd ever seen....Even better than his
no hands landings.

I only offer the story thinking perhaps you're technique is somewhat
similar.

TIA for any response.
z

Nose into the Santa Anna winds out in California, blowing at 45 at least. Full flaps and a C-150. It is fun to try and
do a turn around a point, staying at 2500 agl or so.