ADS-B why

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 10:53:32 PM UTC-6, JS wrote:
On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 5:19:31 AM UTC-8, Mike Schumann wrote:

Have you actually flown in an A/C with ADS-B?

No, I personally haven't. Don't see the need.
Right now I'm watching the race at Benalla, VIC.
There are 10 gliders within 1000' of altitude in one thermal near the start line for Open Class.
Mike, please enlighten us as to where the pilots of the 10 ADS-B equipped gliders would be considering ADS-B in this situation, on the scale of fantastic (10) to annoying (0).
Jim

Jim, please enlighten me why an elite (limited) group of world's best glider pilots in a specific situtation such as World Championships would be indicative and should set an example for all other pilots all over the world, enjoying the peaceful XC? Isn't a competition a special case? Apply it to other sport disciplines: yachting, skiing, car racing - density and speeds etc. Do racing cars set rules for a normal street traffic?

Tom BravoMike

On Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 8:58:34 AM UTC-8, Tom BravoMike wrote:
On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 10:53:32 PM UTC-6, JS wrote:
On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 5:19:31 AM UTC-8, Mike Schumann wrote:

Have you actually flown in an A/C with ADS-B?

No, I personally haven't. Don't see the need.
Right now I'm watching the race at Benalla, VIC.
There are 10 gliders within 1000' of altitude in one thermal near the start line for Open Class.
Mike, please enlighten us as to where the pilots of the 10 ADS-B equipped gliders would be considering ADS-B in this situation, on the scale of fantastic (10) to annoying (0).
Jim

Jim, please enlighten me why an elite (limited) group of world's best glider pilots in a specific situtation such as World Championships would be indicative and should set an example for all other pilots all over the world, enjoying the peaceful XC? Isn't a competition a special case? Apply it to other sport disciplines: yachting, skiing, car racing - density and speeds etc. Do racing cars set rules for a normal street traffic?

Tom BravoMike

Sorry for using a readily available example.
Many good XC weekends at the home field will have gliders sharing a thermal even if a gaggle of two. The gaggles might have elite wood, fabric and steel tubing aircraft.
Would like to know how a modern collision avoidance / traffic awareness system that is designed for typical power traffic separation works in this situation.
Jim

I've flown in gaggles. I don't see how any electronic displays and/or sounds can replace "see and avoid" attitude in a gaggle, with distances of just tens of meters. You have to turn your neck/head/eyes around all the time rather than be distracted by the instruments. I believe devices like FLARM are useful at distances slightly bigger than those in a gaggle. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I have no experience flying with FLARM.

Tom BravoMike

One thing I have found Flarm very useful for -

If I am in a crowded gaggle, I've got my head on a swivel. Flarm does a pretty decent job of warning me about gliders away from the thermal who are flying straight looking to join the thermal. It tends to reduce the shock when someone suddenly appears off your 3 o'clock outside the thermal.

Lou

In my extremely limited experience flying with Flarm, I find that it's a
great situational awareness tool. I've had it alert me of a glider
overtaking me and it was nice to know there was another glider in the
vicinity. For close flying (formation, gaggles), you just can't beat
the Mk-I eyeball.

I currently have all the range settings at maximum for my amusement,
being the only glider in the sky this time of year (except for today,
Billy Hill flew with me in the wave). It also allows me to get used to
it so I can tighten up the settings so as to not be disturbed with
meaningless information.

On 1/11/2017 12:07 PM, Tom BravoMike wrote:
I've flown in gaggles. I don't see how any electronic displays and/or sounds can replace "see and avoid" attitude in a gaggle, with distances of just tens of meters. You have to turn your neck/head/eyes around all the time rather than be distracted by the instruments. I believe devices like FLARM are useful at distances slightly bigger than those in a gaggle. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I have no experience flying with FLARM.

Tom BravoMike


--
Dan, 5J

On Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 5:59:20 PM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
In my extremely limited experience flying with Flarm, I find that it's a
great situational awareness tool. I've had it alert me of a glider
overtaking me and it was nice to know there was another glider in the
vicinity. For close flying (formation, gaggles), you just can't beat
the Mk-I eyeball.

I currently have all the range settings at maximum for my amusement,
being the only glider in the sky this time of year (except for today,
Billy Hill flew with me in the wave). It also allows me to get used to
it so I can tighten up the settings so as to not be disturbed with
meaningless information.

On 1/11/2017 12:07 PM, Tom BravoMike wrote:
I've flown in gaggles. I don't see how any electronic displays and/or sounds can replace "see and avoid" attitude in a gaggle, with distances of just tens of meters. You have to turn your neck/head/eyes around all the time rather than be distracted by the instruments. I believe devices like FLARM are useful at distances slightly bigger than those in a gaggle. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I have no experience flying with FLARM.

Tom BravoMike


--
Dan, 5J

Please, anyone who thinks ATC will route traffic around them when they only show up as a primary target should actually visit ATC and see what they have to contend with. Move too slowly (i.e. circling) and you will be eliminated from their screen altogether. When displayed your target will be easily overlooked.

Anyone flying in the Reno/Minden area should be equipped with a transponder, preferably a mode S. If you are so close you can see which seats are empty you are WAY TOO CLOSE! If you are joking you are a fool.

Tom

All you need is to be able to see him coming a mile or two out, and make a 90 degree turn and get out of the way.

Darryl is right. It's tricky to know at those closure rates on which side/above/below he will pass even if you see him coming from several miles away. not a fun situation.

Please, anyone who thinks ATC will route traffic around them when they only show up as a primary target should actually visit ATC and see what they have to contend with. Move too slowly (i.e. circling) and you will be eliminated from their screen altogether. When displayed your target will be easily overlooked.

Anyone flying in the Reno/Minden area should be equipped with a transponder, preferably a mode S. If you are so close you can see which seats are empty you are WAY TOO CLOSE! If you are joking you are a fool.

Tom

Radio exchange with the local approach controller: 'Are you monitoring 1202?' 'Ah - gliders - no, got them filtered out - there are just too many of them!' insert the sound the little birdie makes, when it comes out of the door of a cuckoo clock here

On Monday, January 23, 2017 at 11:54:18 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
On Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 5:59:20 PM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
In my extremely limited experience flying with Flarm, I find that it's a
great situational awareness tool. I've had it alert me of a glider
overtaking me and it was nice to know there was another glider in the
vicinity. For close flying (formation, gaggles), you just can't beat
the Mk-I eyeball.

I currently have all the range settings at maximum for my amusement,
being the only glider in the sky this time of year (except for today,
Billy Hill flew with me in the wave). It also allows me to get used to
it so I can tighten up the settings so as to not be disturbed with
meaningless information.

On 1/11/2017 12:07 PM, Tom BravoMike wrote:
I've flown in gaggles. I don't see how any electronic displays and/or sounds can replace "see and avoid" attitude in a gaggle, with distances of just tens of meters. You have to turn your neck/head/eyes around all the time rather than be distracted by the instruments. I believe devices like FLARM are useful at distances slightly bigger than those in a gaggle. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I have no experience flying with FLARM.

Tom BravoMike


--
Dan, 5J

Please, anyone who thinks ATC will route traffic around them when they only show up as a primary target should actually visit ATC and see what they have to contend with. Move too slowly (i.e. circling) and you will be eliminated from their screen altogether. When displayed your target will be easily overlooked.

Anyone flying in the Reno/Minden area should be equipped with a transponder, preferably a mode S. If you are so close you can see which seats are empty you are WAY TOO CLOSE! If you are joking you are a fool.

Tom

Well I've been that close (before I installed a Mode S transponder) and I didn't like it all that much. I didn't have much choice in the matter as I was doing 60 knots and they were doing 250. Prior to the transponder, monitoring ATC it was clear they could (often) see me and attempted to route traffic around me, but some frustration could be inferred from the conversation.. With Mode S their job is much easier, and I wonder if it would be easier still with ADSB. With ADSB in, At least I can see them coming.

I understand about filtering slow-moving targets, like geese, and
filtering out a particular transponder code (1202) but, since I
installed my Mode S transponder 4 or 5 years ago, I have not seen an
airliner or business jet up close. Even though ATC might have filtered
me out, the TCAS equipped aircraft see me directly. I don't know about
the ADS-B In equipped aircraft...

I do recall, from 30 years ago, a student solo flight in a 1-26, when I
heard the rising sound of an engine and propeller coming towards me. I
never saw him... I didn't like that very much and I hope to never
experience it again. Damage was limited to minor seat cushion deformity.

On 1/24/2017 10:58 PM, jfitch wrote:
On Monday, January 23, 2017 at 11:54:18 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
On Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 5:59:20 PM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
In my extremely limited experience flying with Flarm, I find that it's a
great situational awareness tool. I've had it alert me of a glider
overtaking me and it was nice to know there was another glider in the
vicinity. For close flying (formation, gaggles), you just can't beat
the Mk-I eyeball.

I currently have all the range settings at maximum for my amusement,
being the only glider in the sky this time of year (except for today,
Billy Hill flew with me in the wave). It also allows me to get used to
it so I can tighten up the settings so as to not be disturbed with
meaningless information.

On 1/11/2017 12:07 PM, Tom BravoMike wrote:
I've flown in gaggles. I don't see how any electronic displays and/or sounds can replace "see and avoid" attitude in a gaggle, with distances of just tens of meters. You have to turn your neck/head/eyes around all the time rather than be distracted by the instruments. I believe devices like FLARM are useful at distances slightly bigger than those in a gaggle. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I have no experience flying with FLARM.

Tom BravoMike

--
Dan, 5J
Please, anyone who thinks ATC will route traffic around them when they only show up as a primary target should actually visit ATC and see what they have to contend with. Move too slowly (i.e. circling) and you will be eliminated from their screen altogether. When displayed your target will be easily overlooked.

Anyone flying in the Reno/Minden area should be equipped with a transponder, preferably a mode S. If you are so close you can see which seats are empty you are WAY TOO CLOSE! If you are joking you are a fool.

Tom
Well I've been that close (before I installed a Mode S transponder) and I didn't like it all that much. I didn't have much choice in the matter as I was doing 60 knots and they were doing 250. Prior to the transponder, monitoring ATC it was clear they could (often) see me and attempted to route traffic around me, but some frustration could be inferred from the conversation. With Mode S their job is much easier, and I wonder if it would be easier still with ADSB. With ADSB in, At least I can see them coming.

--
Dan, 5J