If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#31
|
|||
|
|||
"John" wrote in message om... If we assume we all fly well (either direction), and we all understand the importance of controlling airspeed during landing, why is the number one pilot error that is causing injury the stall/spin while turning to land? John is this a troll, or, are you one of those control freaks who wants to use safety as a means to tell people what direction to turn and how fast to fly? I make no assumption that all pilots fly well - too many years as a CFI-G for that. At the moment a pilot enters a fatal stall/spin, they were careless, inept, forgetful or just incredibly rusty. The pilot who doesn't is not lucky, they are flying well and paying attention. Flying is EXTREMELY unforgiving of any carelessness. At the end of the day, good pilots fly and live and bad pilots crash. It's just that simple. Aviation is Darwinian. Get away from the idea that you can stall all you want safely at height, while down low, you no longer have that luxury. Get away from the idea we all are responsible for flying the plane at all times. The basic fact is we are all trained and should be able to land safely.....yet, repeatedly, the same errors are being made by stalling during the landing pattern. Why? It's the truth. You ARE responsible and WILL be held accountable - if not by man, by Mother Nature. You'd better hope it's man, Mother Nature is a bitch - she'll kill you without remorse if you violate Her rules. All trained to land safely? Probably, but it doesn't matter. What matters is how well you fly the NEXT pattern and landing. Again, it's not just how well you were trained, it's how much of that training that you employ in your NEXT flight. Is it pilot distraction that creates a laspes in monitoring airspeed? Or is it habit? Pilots are (or should be) trained to deal with distraction. Bad habits? Maybe, but that means that the pilot needs remedial instruction and that should have been caught at the last flight review. With any physical activity, people develop habits thru repetion. Turn right 100 times slowly, then turn right fast...it will feel different. Will you instinctively slow down the fast turn to match the previous 100 slow turns? I think that is very possible. Here is a way to check your habits. Next booming day, try 10-20 turns to right at say 40 knots, then speed up to 65 knots. Can you hold 65 knots in a right turn now? Likely, but I bet you glance at the airspeed a little more than you did in the previous 10-20 turns. It just seems logical to me if you spend several hours flying slow, you will tend to continue flying slow unless you specifically make yourself fly faster. Get distracted, and you will go right back to flying slow. Talking habits, here. Is this habit of flying slow contributing to the stall/spin problem when landing? None of the above. If a pilot is doing any of these things, it points exclusively to poor flying abilities that the pilot should have noted himself and taken pro-active steps to remedy or should have been noticed by someone else who takes action. Safety is the result of just one thing - flying ability - which, among other things, includes good judgement and the ability to control the aircraft at all times with the outcome of the flight never in doubt. Without flying ability there is no hope for any safety at all. With it, there's no need for artificial rules about turn direction and airspeeds. Unlike any other segment of aviation, a very large part of gliding activity takes place in single seat aircraft . This allows a pilots skill levels to deteriorate and many bad habits to develop out of sight of his peers. We must compensate either individually by taking responsibility for the maintenance of our flying skills or collectively through peer review. To do otherwise is to invite a continuing bad safety record and higher insurance premiums. To tolerate poor flying ability in ourselves or others, or to make rules that accommodate it, is to institutionalize the problem. Spring is less than two weeks away and I expect to read of the usual wave of accidents as rusty pilots come out of hibernation. Everyone, do yourself, and the sport, a favor and schedule a flight with your favorite CFI-G. As you all can tell, I see this issue in black and white - end of sermon. Bill Daniels |
#32
|
|||
|
|||
bandit111964 (John) wrote:
[snip] With any physical activity, people develop habits thru repetion. Turn right 100 times slowly, then turn right fast...it will feel different. Yes, and a pilot can (or should) recognize that difference whether the slow/fast turns are done in the same or in different directions. Will you instinctively slow down the fast turn to match the previous 100 slow turns? Not if you are in the pattern, no. I don't buy that ideology. It just seems logical to me if you spend several hours flying slow, you will tend to continue flying slow unless you specifically make yourself fly faster. Get distracted, and you will go right back to flying slow. Talking habits, here. "Talking habits"? ... if you suspect this might be the case, your suggestion would only compound the problem of "habits". Understanding that thermaling AND landing *have to* be done proficiently in both directions (i.e., joining any established gaggle or when wind changes direction at the runway while you're in-flight), promoting the habit of ONLY thermaling in one direction and ONLY landing in the other to avoid stall/spin accidents is fixing what you perceive to be a problem with an even bigger one -- creating a pilot who only consistently practices things ONE way. That makes as much sense as suggesting that instead of learning, understanding and becoming as consistent as possible setting it up so you're on the glideslope, you intentionally always come in too high to avoid the tendency to want to pull the nose up on final -- unless I'm terribly mistaken, both examples are compounding one problem by trying to fix it with another. --Shirley |
#33
|
|||
|
|||
"ADP" wrote in message ... Well Shirley, you are exactly right. And Bill, with all due respect, "Absent a rigging error, (meaning the glider flies straight hands-off - not forgetting the wing pins) a pilots feeling that he has a "preferred turn direction" is a red flag warning of a general flying skill deficit that needs professional attention.", is just utter nonsense. There comes a time in any pilots flying life when flying becomes mostly automatic. Some aren't there yet but when it happens, it gives one time to concentrate on finesse rather than basic execution. If your mental autopilot, just like the mechanical variety, prefers one turn direction over the other, it needs re-calibration. If your mental autopilot flies straight, THEN concentrate on finesse. Bill Daniels |
#34
|
|||
|
|||
John wrote:
Here is a way to check your habits. Next booming day, try 10-20 turns to right at say 40 knots, then speed up to 65 knots. Can you hold 65 knots in a right turn now? NO Problem. Not even when I had only a 100 hours. Likely, but I bet you glance at the airspeed a little more than you did in the previous 10-20 turns. Not unless I am in the pattern: establish the turn, then maintain it by attitude. I don't have to monitor the airspeed anymore in a fast turn than I do in a slow turn; in fact, it would be better to the reverse, since you are closer to a stall when going slow. It just seems logical to me if you spend several hours flying slow, you will tend to continue flying slow unless you specifically make yourself fly faster. Well, maybe, but that's why you go to the correct pattern speed and set the trim (many pilots set it slightly forward of the pattern speed). Then fly by attitude and monitor the airspeed. These are the habits that you should be building and using. Get distracted, and you will go right back to flying slow. Talking habits, here. One more thing: thermalling is repeated 360s; patterns are only 90 degree turns (mostly). If you find yourself changing speed significantly during a 90 degree turn, you need much more instruction on flying by attitude and monitoring the airspeed in the pattern. I'm not kidding. If your "habit" is that strong, you need training, not landing in one direction and thermalling in another. Is this habit of flying slow contributing to the stall/spin problem when landing? It's hard for me to imagine how countless hours of well executed 360 turns at a slow speed contribute to botching a 90 degree turn near the ground. I'm guessing you are not flying by attitude, or paying attention to the other cues to airspeed. John, what glider are you flying? -- ----- change "netto" to "net" to email me directly Eric Greenwell Washington State USA |
#35
|
|||
|
|||
|
#36
|
|||
|
|||
"Kirk Stant" wrote in message om... (John) wrote in message . com... snip I do notice that most students start off turning right off tow (as they are taught), and continue turning right, while race pilots prefer to turn left (as required by rules near the airport and turnpoints). Makes for some interesting thermalling... snip Kirk 66 Could someone explain _why_ the rules specify left? I can see the point of everyone turning the same direction, but why not pick the direction in which you turn after getting off tow? Tim Ward |
#37
|
|||
|
|||
I was recently enlightened by Tom Knauff that the lifted wing approach
only works about half the time. Yeah...I head Tom make a similar comment at an SSA Convention some years ago...Dallas, or maybe Albuquerque. Derek Piggott, whose presentation followed Tom's, commented, "I wonder who Tom doesn't like to turn into the lift?" |
#38
|
|||
|
|||
"Jim" wrote in message ... I was recently enlightened by Tom Knauff that the lifted wing approach only works about half the time. Yeah...I head Tom make a similar comment at an SSA Convention some years ago...Dallas, or maybe Albuquerque. Derek Piggott, whose presentation followed Tom's, commented, "I wonder who Tom doesn't like to turn into the lift?" Oooops...make that "wonder WHY" not "wonder WHO" Anyway...I'm with Derek on this one. |
#39
|
|||
|
|||
John,
this is the value of the trim handle. By resetting it, if you become momentarily distracted, you are less likely to let the nose float up. As you may have no choice in the direction you thermal, you may not have a choice in the direction of your pattern. You should be able to transition from climb to cruise and maintain a speed, regardless what that speed is and your altitude. This is basic airmanship. If you find this difficult, get help. Stall spin in the pattern is typically due to poor pattern planning, often leading to skidded turns at low altitude. And while you must stall to spin, you will not spin if the you maintain coordinated controls. This is why your instructor repeatedly told you to check airspeed and yaw string while flying in the pattern. Down low this is of paramount importance. There is simply no room for error. Again, basic airmanship. You are rationalizing a crutch. Learn not to be distracted. Deal with problems, but don't let problems create bigger ones by letting your focus wander from the task at hand -- flying your aircraft. |
#40
|
|||
|
|||
In article ,
John wrote: The point I was making was is there benefits for low-time pilots to thermal right and land left? This is a naive, but certainly not a stupid question. If everyone did turn right (or left) in all thermals (presumably at altitude) this at face value would seem to reduce the chance of a midair, if both pilots can't see each other for whatever reason. I'm not suggesting this, just pointing out there are reasons why this isn't simply an idea to discard as foolish... -- ------------+ Mark Boyd Avenal, California, USA |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
For Auction: Thermal Imaging Camera - One Day Left | sell2all | Rotorcraft | 0 | April 29th 04 08:29 PM |
For Auction: Thermal Imaging Camera - One Day Left | sell2all | Naval Aviation | 0 | April 29th 04 08:09 PM |
For Auction: Thermal Imaging Camera - One Day Left | sell2all | General Aviation | 0 | April 29th 04 08:09 PM |
Spin on thermal entry - how-to | Bill Daniels | Soaring | 0 | January 29th 04 05:43 PM |
Thermal to Wave contact! | C.Fleming | Soaring | 1 | January 21st 04 01:54 PM |