Best Overall Motorglider available today?

kinsell wrote on 9/23/2020 8:10 AM:
On 9/22/20 3:09 PM, waremark wrote:


I expect that as the energy density of batteries improves electric engines will
become dominant, and I worry that this will affect the sale-ability of petrol
engined self-launchers.

Even without advances like dilithium crystal batteries, we have the prospect of
politicians getting into power who have sworn to get rid of fossil fuels
altogether.* That brings up the prospect of electric towplanes that can do one or
two launches a day, then back to the hangar for their recharge.

Electric towplanes? An odd response to the question of the Best Overall
Motorglider available today, where the idea is to get rid of the towplane entirely.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Why nobody mentioned Antares 20/21E?

S

At 06:18 28 September 2020, Slawek Piela wrote:
Why nobody mentioned Antares 20/21E?

The Antares 20E is a very nice handling machine with a good high speed
glide angle, comfortable (crash resistant) cockpit and excellent simple
engine controls (one lever does it all). The climb rate is very good (a
large, 2m diameter, slow revving prop and engine doors that are closed
during climb all help). The build quality is very nice.
In EASA land you can extend the actual ARC inspection to every three
years; the A/C can generate its own system reports which can be sent to
your inspector, if all is well a physical inspection is not required
annually.
However the total full power engine run time is only about 13 minutes so
after a ~3000 foot climb (I've averaged 6 minutes/launch over the last 5
years) you might have 50 - 60% battery capacity remaining: realistically
this will give you one further good climb so for many pilots the limited
battery capacity is seen as a problem.
The A/C is electrically/electronically very complex, the engine doors, the

engine erection/retraction and the U/C are all electro-hydraulic: even in
Europe any serious issue might mean a trip to Lange Aviation,
Zweibrucken, NW Germany.
It's expensive; it's the nicest motor glider I've owned/operated. Things
that could be better: -
(i) Engineers & inspectors with experience of Antares maintenance are
thin on the ground.
(ii) The official Flight & Maintenance Manuals are in still in German!

On Monday, September 28, 2020 at 2:18:07 AM UTC-4, Slawek Piela wrote:
Why nobody mentioned Antares 20/21E?

Before you purchase any motorglider, you will want to talk to a few owners
about their ownership experience, especially reliability and factory support.

At 14:04 28 September 2020, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Monday, September 28, 2020 at 2:18:07 AM UTC-4, Slawek Piela
wrote:
Why nobody mentioned Antares 20/21E?

Before you purchase any motorglider, you will want to talk to a few
owners
about their ownership experience, especially reliability and factory
support.

I agree totally: what you might well discover is that the reliable motor
glider does not yet exist. Given this, good factory support is very
desirable.

At least individual examples do exist. I've owned mine for 20 years, in that time I have had exactly 1 failure to start (first start after the winter layup, fouled plugs), and no inflight failures at all. Other than scheduled maintenance per the manual, the list of repairs in 20 years has been:

* replaced exhaust muffler per A/D
* replaced water pump due to progressively worsening seal
* preemptively replaced belt idler bearings which were judged to be noisy
* replaced coil #1, internally intermittent

I've rarely owned a car that had fewer repairs. I'm not going to argue that this glider is as reliable as a modern car, but with vigilant maintenance, reliability has not been bad relatively speaking. Perhaps I have been lucky, but I know other owners who are equally lucky. I own two boats, each of which has required more unscheduled maintenance than has the glider. Boats and gliders are both made in prototype quantities, an expectation of reliability equal to an automobile (made in millions) is naive. But of course, even in an automobile, good factory support is desirable.

On Monday, September 28, 2020 at 9:30:07 AM UTC-7, Dave Walsh wrote:
I agree totally: what you might well discover is that the reliable motor
glider does not yet exist. Given this, good factory support is very
desirable.

jfitch wrote on 9/28/2020 10:19 AM:
At least individual examples do exist. I've owned mine for 20 years, in that time I have had exactly 1 failure to start (first start after the winter layup, fouled plugs), and no inflight failures at all. Other than scheduled maintenance per the manual, the list of repairs in 20 years has been:

* replaced exhaust muffler per A/D
* replaced water pump due to progressively worsening seal
* preemptively replaced belt idler bearings which were judged to be noisy
* replaced coil #1, internally intermittent

I've rarely owned a car that had fewer repairs. I'm not going to argue that this glider is as reliable as a modern car, but with vigilant maintenance, reliability has not been bad relatively speaking. Perhaps I have been lucky, but I know other owners who are equally lucky. I own two boats, each of which has required more unscheduled maintenance than has the glider. Boats and gliders are both made in prototype quantities, an expectation of reliability equal to an automobile (made in millions) is naive. But of course, even in an automobile, good factory support is desirable.

On Monday, September 28, 2020 at 9:30:07 AM UTC-7, Dave Walsh wrote:
I agree totally: what you might well discover is that the reliable motor
glider does not yet exist. Given this, good factory support is very
desirable.

My experience with my ASH 26E parallels Jon's: over 26 years, 4000+ hours, 200
engine hours, except for these engine related issues...

-I've had one failure to start in-flight; probably my fault as it started
immediately on the ground shortly after landing
-replaced the propeller drive belt after 20 years "just because"
-the air spring on the mast was replaced once
-oil sensor leaked, replaced
-I have not replaced a coil, but I did replace the flywheel per an AD the second
year or so.
-I've only lost two or three soaring days due to propulsion system issues, as most
maintenance could be deferred to non-soaring periods (like winter)

I flew towed gliders for about 3000 hours, and lost many days due to towplane
issues: no pilot or towplane down for various mechanical problems. I can take my
26E to almost any airport, where I can expect to launch and then return 5-6 hours
later, even the weather doesn't cooperate. That's my idea of a reliable glider!
Try that with a towed glider, and your "reliability" will be much worse.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

You did not say which aircraft you own...

Matt

On Monday, September 28, 2020 at 1:19:30 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
At least individual examples do exist. I've owned mine for 20 years, in that time I have had exactly 1 failure to start (first start after the winter layup, fouled plugs), and no inflight failures at all. Other than scheduled maintenance per the manual, the list of repairs in 20 years has been:

* replaced exhaust muffler per A/D
* replaced water pump due to progressively worsening seal
* preemptively replaced belt idler bearings which were judged to be noisy
* replaced coil #1, internally intermittent

I've rarely owned a car that had fewer repairs. I'm not going to argue that this glider is as reliable as a modern car, but with vigilant maintenance, reliability has not been bad relatively speaking. Perhaps I have been lucky, but I know other owners who are equally lucky. I own two boats, each of which has required more unscheduled maintenance than has the glider. Boats and gliders are both made in prototype quantities, an expectation of reliability equal to an automobile (made in millions) is naive. But of course, even in an automobile, good factory support is desirable.

Now that this discussion is totally off in the weeds, I'm wondering
what the conclusion is?



On 9/15/20 11:48 AM, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Didn't want to hijack the current FES tread so I thought I'd start a new one.
This topic came up over dinner a couple of weeks ago.

When you add all the following into a pot and stir, whats the "Best"
Say for Western Great Basin flying.

I think it may be the Carat, but I don't know much about it.
CX thinks its the DG 800 series, but all I know is since he bought that thing its been a endless battle to keep it running. But it does climb well.

FACTORS

Reliability
Maintenance required to keep it running
XC flyability, performance and control feel
Storability
Rigging
Initial cost
High density climb performance
Range
Cockpit layout and seating
Parts availability
Insurance cost
Landing gear complexity
Overall quality
Nick
T

42.

Le vendredi 9 octobre 2020 Ã* 16:47:37 UTC+2, kinsell a écritÂ*:
Now that this discussion is totally off in the weeds, I'm wondering
what the conclusion is?