changing operating limitations

This whole thing seems to be, once again, an issue of terminology...

We are dealing with four separate types of aircraft:

1. Certified - Built under a type certificate, with the type certificate
being approved by the FAA. Some of these aircraft may also meet the Light
Sport Aircraft requirements, and may be flown by holders of a Sport Pilot
Certificate; others require at minimum a PPL (or Rec Pilot) license.

2. Experimental - Given an airworthiness certificate on a case-by-case
basis. Requires at minimum a PPL (or Rec Pilot) license.

3. Special Light Sport Aircraft - Built to consensus standards adopted by
the FAA. May be flown by a Sport Pilot or above.

4. Experimental Light Sport Aircraft - Given an airworthiness certificate on
a case-by-case basis. May be flown by a Sport Pilot or above.

That portion of the FAA regs requiring that the aircraft must have met the
Light Sport Requirements since it was built has to do with Certified
aircraft that, under their original type certificate, met the LSA
requirements, and have never been modified to an extent that would take them
outside of the LSA requirements.

In other words, if a Certified aircraft met the LSA requirements under it's
original type certificate but was later modified in such a manner that it no
longer met the LSA requirements, it cannot be "rolled back" by removing the
modifications and still be an LSA, even though it would then be at it's
original type certified state.

Again, this applies to Certified Aircraft.

As far as converting an Experimental aircraft into an Experimental Light
Sport Aircraft, allow me to SPECULATE...

I would GUESS, that you would first need to de-register the aircraft and
"turn in" the airworthiness certificate. At that point, you could then
modify the aircraft to meet the eLSA specs and then go through the eLSA
certification process.

Again, that part is just a guess...









"T o d d P a t t i s t" wrote in message
...
"Russell Duffy" wrote:

"Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft...

This certainly uncovers some of the confusion. We need to make sure and
distinquish between "light sport aircraft", "experimental light sport
aircraft", and aircraft that can be flown by sport pilots.

I'm not sure what confusion you think this clears up. I
agree there are differences between the aircraft definitions
above, but if you want to fly an airplane with a Subpart J
"Sport Pilot" certificate, the airplane must meet the
definition of an LSA I quoted. The whole purpose of
"modifying" the RV, I presumed, was to get it inside the LSA
definition.

The original
question asked about a homebuilt, and specifically an RV-3, so I assumed
it
would have an experimental certification.

I presume that too, but he wanted it to meet the definition
of a "Light-sport aircraft" so he could fly with a DL, and
no medical. If it did not meet the requirements I quoted,
he'd have to have a medical.

My understanding is that it would be possible to take an experimental
aircraft, and modify it so that it would meet the limitations of the
sport
pilot.

Not if it had an "original certification" outside the
limits. I suppose there's an opening for taking it apart,
and building something new from some/all of the parts, but
that's more than just modifying it.

I don't agree with this. I've certified 3 experimental aircraft, and not
one single time has the "maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum
continuous power(VH)" ever been listed anywhere.

What don't you agree with? I didn't say it did have such a
speed listed - did I? Nonetheless, according to the FAA
there *is* such a speed. I've got no idea how it's
determined for an experimental. I presume that the builder
has some control over it, since he's got control over the
entire aircraft.

The Vne is listed, but
many aircraft have Vne's that can't be achieved in level flight, so it
doesn't mean the plane will do it.

Agreed. Anyway, Vne is only important for gliders as LSAs.

The operating limitations received from the FAA with the airworthiness
certificate don't list ANY speeds, as these must be determined during the
phase one test period, and noted in the aircraft log. The log can be
modified over time to reflect changes in the aircraft as well, so if
modification is made that would reduce the weight, airspeed, etc, it
appears
to be perfectly legal to change the log to reflect that mod.

If it's your opinion that an experimental aircraft capable
of exceeding Vh of 120 knots when originally certified can
later be modified to comply with the LSA definition, then we
completely disagree. If you are saying the builder can
build an LSA compliant aircraft within the specs and *then*
get it certified, we agree. If you are expressing some
opinion as to *how* to determine the Vh of an aircraft like
an RV-3, I'm neutral at this point, as I don't know what the
FAA would find to be acceptable. It's possible that no one
knows for sure right now.

Getting the paperwork right may be enough, as long as it's
done before certification. It's possible a minor mod, such
as restricting throttle might be enough. I'm interested in
the answer, not trying to give one.

That does not look like the "exact question" asked above.

Let's see... The question I asked AOPA was- "I currently have an RV-3
with a
two rotor Mazda engine. If I put a single rotor engine, with far less
power, and use a prop that will reduce the top speed to 138 mph, could it
be
flown by a sport pilot?" Seems pretty close to the exact question to me
:-)

Perhaps I misunderstood. First you said:

"My understanding is that it would be possible to take an
experimental aircraft, and modify it so that it would meet
the limitations of the sport pilot. "

I took that to be a question about modifying an aircraft
that was already certified.

Then you said:

"I even asked AOPA this exact question about this a week or
so ago, and their opinion was that the plane would have to
be truly incapable of exceeding the speed limit, rather than
just an RPM limitation. "

That looked like an answer to the question of how to
determine Vh on an RV-3. I assumed the AOPA would know you
can't bring an aircraft that was outside LSA limits into LSA
limits. If they gave you the second answer to the first
question, they didn't give you enough information.

I know someone who has an aircraft with two different
certified max gross weights (one below LSA max, one above)
depending on the type of gear installed.

It was upgraded to the higher max gross at one point in its
life. He has the old gear. He's been told, and finally
concluded himself, that under the regs he cannot go
backwards to meet the LSA requirements by reinstalling the
old gear.

T o d d P a t t i s t
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
___
Make a commitment to learn something from every flight.
Share what you learn.

"Russell Duffy" wrote in message
...
If it's your opinion that an experimental aircraft capable
of exceeding Vh of 120 knots when originally certified can
later be modified to comply with the LSA definition, then we
completely disagree.

Yep, that's my opinion. At this point, the best thing we can do is agree
to disagree.

Rusty

Especially if Vh has never been determined.

Rich S.

Please see my previous response...

The important thing to note is that an Experimental aircraft is never
"certified"; it is simply granted an airworthiness certificate.

A "certified" aircraft is one built under a Type Certificate.

So, it appears that there is no reason why an Experimental could not be
converted to an eLSA...


"Russell Duffy" wrote in message
...
If it's your opinion that an experimental aircraft capable
of exceeding Vh of 120 knots when originally certified can
later be modified to comply with the LSA definition, then we
completely disagree.

Yep, that's my opinion. At this point, the best thing we can do is agree
to
disagree.

Rusty

2. Experimental - Given an airworthiness certificate on a case-by-case
basis. Requires at minimum a PPL (or Rec Pilot) license.


Excellent post. This is the only statement I question. Are you sure about
this? I could swear I've read that Sport Pilots could fly Experimental
aircraft, assuming the aircraft met the SP allowed weight, speed, etc.

Thanks,
Rusty

I don't see why an experimental aircraft would require a PPL or rec pilot
license. My understanding is that IF the experimental meets the LSA
performance limitations, a sport pilot may fly it - just like he may fly a
certified aircraft that meets the limitations. If that is not so, please
steer me to the right regulation.

Frank

"Lakeview Bill" wrote in message
m...
This whole thing seems to be, once again, an issue of terminology...

We are dealing with four separate types of aircraft:

1. Certified - Built under a type certificate, with the type certificate
being approved by the FAA. Some of these aircraft may also meet the Light
Sport Aircraft requirements, and may be flown by holders of a Sport Pilot
Certificate; others require at minimum a PPL (or Rec Pilot) license.

2. Experimental - Given an airworthiness certificate on a case-by-case
basis. Requires at minimum a PPL (or Rec Pilot) license.

3. Special Light Sport Aircraft - Built to consensus standards adopted by
the FAA. May be flown by a Sport Pilot or above.

4. Experimental Light Sport Aircraft - Given an airworthiness certificate
on
a case-by-case basis. May be flown by a Sport Pilot or above.

That portion of the FAA regs requiring that the aircraft must have met the
Light Sport Requirements since it was built has to do with Certified
aircraft that, under their original type certificate, met the LSA
requirements, and have never been modified to an extent that would take
them
outside of the LSA requirements.

In other words, if a Certified aircraft met the LSA requirements under
it's
original type certificate but was later modified in such a manner that it
no
longer met the LSA requirements, it cannot be "rolled back" by removing
the
modifications and still be an LSA, even though it would then be at it's
original type certified state.

Again, this applies to Certified Aircraft.

As far as converting an Experimental aircraft into an Experimental Light
Sport Aircraft, allow me to SPECULATE...

I would GUESS, that you would first need to de-register the aircraft and
"turn in" the airworthiness certificate. At that point, you could then
modify the aircraft to meet the eLSA specs and then go through the eLSA
certification process.

Again, that part is just a guess...

"frank" wrote in message
...
I don't see why an experimental aircraft would require a PPL or rec pilot
license. My understanding is that IF the experimental meets the LSA
performance limitations, a sport pilot may fly it - just like he may fly a
certified aircraft that meets the limitations. If that is not so, please
steer me to the right regulation.

Frank

You are correct Frank,
Go to the EAA's website and it lists a ton of now experimental aircraft
that a sport pilot CAN fly because it meets the sport standards. Of course
when you build your Volksplane you can register it as experimental-light
sport. Or buy one that has the experimental from 15 years ago . Either way
you can fly it. just as a certified classic airplane will not have to have a
new certification, neither will an old experimental. Can you just imagine
the confusion and paperwork involved in getting all the old Ercoupes, Cubs,
Champs etc etc new Certified light sport certificates. If a sport pilot can
not fly an experimental , then there is a crapload of sport pilots flying
illegal..because they have been buying them and flying them.
Could you de-register an old VP and change it from experimental to
experimental-light sport. Sure you could, but I have not seen anything that
says it is necessary. The only difference would pertain to maint. issues. If
you held the light sport repairman cert you could work on your experimental
light sport plane..but you could not work on a plane with just an
experimental , it would require an A&P. That issue deals with a plane you
bought , not one you built. If you built it I am sure the repairman cert for
that plane would allow maint.
Is anyone confused yet!?!

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

No, the aircraft would have to be "certified" (vernacular use; not a
certified aircraft) as an Experimental Light Sport Aircraft.

The Experimental "certification" process does not ensure that the aircraft
meets the criteria for an LSA.



"Russell Duffy" wrote in message
. ..
2. Experimental - Given an airworthiness certificate on a case-by-case
basis. Requires at minimum a PPL (or Rec Pilot) license.


Excellent post. This is the only statement I question. Are you sure
about
this? I could swear I've read that Sport Pilots could fly Experimental
aircraft, assuming the aircraft met the SP allowed weight, speed, etc.

Thanks,
Rusty

Sorry to diagree with you on this - I have clarified this very point with
the FAA, and was told that a sport pilot CAN fly an experimental if it meets
the limitations.

Frank

"Lakeview Bill" wrote in message
m...
No, the aircraft would have to be "certified" (vernacular use; not a
certified aircraft) as an Experimental Light Sport Aircraft.

The Experimental "certification" process does not ensure that the aircraft
meets the criteria for an LSA.

Sorry to diagree with you on this - I have clarified this very point with
the FAA, and was told that a sport pilot CAN fly an experimental if it
meets
the limitations.

Frank



The following is on sportpilot.org as well:


If I become a sport pilot, what can I fly?

An aircraft that meets the definition of a light-sport aircraft may hold an
airworthiness certificate in any one of the following categories of FAA
certification:
a.. an experimental aircraft, including amateur-built aircraft, for which
the owner must construct more than 51-percent of the aircraft.
b.. a Standard category aircraft; that is, a ready-to-fly aircraft that is
type-certificated in accordance with FAR Part 43.
c.. a Primary category aircraft; that is, a ready-to-fly aircraft that is
type-certificated in accordance with Primary category regulations.
d.. a special light-sport aircraft
e.. an experimental light-sport aircraft.
Cheers,
Rusty

I stand corrected...

Thanks for posting that!

If you don't learn something everyday, what's the point...


"Russell Duffy" wrote in message
.. .
Sorry to diagree with you on this - I have clarified this very point
with
the FAA, and was told that a sport pilot CAN fly an experimental if it
meets
the limitations.

Frank



The following is on sportpilot.org as well:


If I become a sport pilot, what can I fly?

An aircraft that meets the definition of a light-sport aircraft may hold
an
airworthiness certificate in any one of the following categories of FAA
certification:
a.. an experimental aircraft, including amateur-built aircraft, for
which
the owner must construct more than 51-percent of the aircraft.
b.. a Standard category aircraft; that is, a ready-to-fly aircraft that
is
type-certificated in accordance with FAR Part 43.
c.. a Primary category aircraft; that is, a ready-to-fly aircraft that
is
type-certificated in accordance with Primary category regulations.
d.. a special light-sport aircraft
e.. an experimental light-sport aircraft.
Cheers,
Rusty