Flying Lessons

That sounds like something way bigger than what I would consider
flying.


On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 15:58:26 GMT, "Steve Foley"
wrote:

Just for comparison:

I was talking to a friend of mine who is a corporate pilot. I spend $200 to
fill the tanks in my Cherokee 140. His company spends $7,000 to fill the
tanks in his Hawker.

"Steve" wrote in message
...

I'm considering taking up flying as a hobby. It's something I've been
wanting to do
since I was a kid. The ultimate goal is to learn how to fly lear jets or
should I say private
light jets. What flight training classes would I have to take and how many
hrs would I
have to perform. I can pretty much fly as many times a week as necessary
to get the
training my job schedule is highly flexible. I have noticed that most
courses run from 5
to 7 k. To get a private pilots license. But what would it take to have
the licensing to fly
a lear. And can those courses be taken right after getting my PPL. I saw
where I could
get a PPL for 8,000 and get instrument training for another 6,000. Is
there another
course needed to fly a lear and can all the classes be taken concurrently.

That's the only data point I have. The reason I point it out is to
demonstrate that most 'hobby' flyers fly piston. John Travolta and Jimmy
Buffet are the only names I know who fly jets as their personal aircraft.
I'm sure there are others, but they're all out of my price range.

"Steve" wrote in message
...
That sounds like something way bigger than what I would consider
flying.


On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 15:58:26 GMT, "Steve Foley"
wrote:

Just for comparison:

I was talking to a friend of mine who is a corporate pilot. I spend $200
to
fill the tanks in my Cherokee 140. His company spends $7,000 to fill the
tanks in his Hawker.

On 2005-09-21, Steve Foley wrote:
That's the only data point I have. The reason I point it out is to
demonstrate that most 'hobby' flyers fly piston. John Travolta and Jimmy
Buffet are the only names I know who fly jets as their personal aircraft.
I'm sure there are others, but they're all out of my price range.

We had a few people who would fly into Houston Gulf on occasion who
owned and flew their own jets - usually the single pilot Cessna
Citations.

They were of course very very wealthy.

Privately owned turboprops weren't too uncommon - we had a Jetprop DLX
conversion based there, and we'd occasionally get owner-flown turboprop
twins of various types show up.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

Some Cessna Citation models are certificated for single-pilot operation,
but all Lears require two pilots. I had about 4000 hours of flight
experience (and an airline transport pilot certificate) when I got my Lear
type rating and it cost $9000...in 1977. I suspect that the cost might be a
tad higher in today's dollars.

I applaud your goals and determination. Learn to fly as soon as possible,
but realize that unless you are Richard Branson or Bill Gates, it will be
years before you have the experience to venture into jets.

Bob Gardner

"Steve" wrote in message
. ..

I'm considering taking up flying as a hobby. It's something I've been
wanting to do
since I was a kid. The ultimate goal is to learn how to fly lear jets or
should I say private
light jets. What flight training classes would I have to take and how many
hrs would I
have to perform. I can pretty much fly as many times a week as necessary
to get the
training my job schedule is highly flexible. I have noticed that most
courses run from 5
to 7 k. To get a private pilots license. But what would it take to have
the licensing to fly
a lear. And can those courses be taken right after getting my PPL. I saw
where I could
get a PPL for 8,000 and get instrument training for another 6,000. Is
there another
course needed to fly a lear and can all the classes be taken concurrently.

All this boils down to how much money you have to spend.

Everyone here focused on Lear, and keeps telling you they are flown by
two pilots. True enough, but the fact is that Cessna makes a single
pilot Citation jet, and quite a few people own those as personal
self-flown airplanes. So assuming that's what you're going for (a
6-person 450-mph jet) here's what you need to do:

Get your private, instrument, multi-instrument, and Citation type
rating in that order. You will probably need to rack up some multi
time before anyone will try to teach you in a Citation. All of this,
including the practice time required, can probably be made to happen
for less than $120K in under 500 hours. If you push it, you can
probably make it all happen in a year or so. If the price tag is out
of reach for you, you can't afford the private jet anyway.

If in the process you buy a transition airplane (most likely a twin -
something like a Cessna 310 that is reasonable for training but has
adequate performance for some utility) then you can start getting
utility from your flying about 4 months or so into the game.

If you actually want to be insured (even for liability only) then the
first year of jet ownership will probably mean having an instructor
pilot in the jet in any case - nobody will write you any other way, if
at all.

Michael

Thanks for the heads up Michael. I am aware of all those classes
except for the Multi-Instrument can you take that class at your local
flight school or do I need to find a different avenue for that.

On 20 Sep 2005 15:45:16 -0700, "Michael"
wrote:

All this boils down to how much money you have to spend.

Everyone here focused on Lear, and keeps telling you they are flown by
two pilots. True enough, but the fact is that Cessna makes a single
pilot Citation jet, and quite a few people own those as personal
self-flown airplanes. So assuming that's what you're going for (a
6-person 450-mph jet) here's what you need to do:

Get your private, instrument, multi-instrument, and Citation type
rating in that order. You will probably need to rack up some multi
time before anyone will try to teach you in a Citation. All of this,
including the practice time required, can probably be made to happen
for less than $120K in under 500 hours. If you push it, you can
probably make it all happen in a year or so. If the price tag is out
of reach for you, you can't afford the private jet anyway.

If in the process you buy a transition airplane (most likely a twin -
something like a Cessna 310 that is reasonable for training but has
adequate performance for some utility) then you can start getting
utility from your flying about 4 months or so into the game.

If you actually want to be insured (even for liability only) then the
first year of jet ownership will probably mean having an instructor
pilot in the jet in any case - nobody will write you any other way, if
at all.

Michael

Thanks for the heads up Michael. I am aware of all those classes
except for the Multi-Instrument can you take that class at your local
flight school or do I need to find a different avenue for that.

If your local flight school has a twin, you can take the
multi-instrument there. Some do, some don't. Note that they may not
call it multi-instrument. When you take a multi ride as an instrument
rated private pilot, you have the option of taking a VFR-only ride (and
getting a VFR-only multi, your instrument privileges restricted to
singles) or a ride with IFR components (an engine failure on
instruments and a single engine approach) that will give you IFR
privileges in the twin. The latter is what you want.

The class you will definitely need to travel to is the one that will
get you a Citation type rating.

Michael

That's a valuable tip. I'll look for flight schools with twins first
and see if I can get a good match with the instructors. If not I'll go
the single engine route first. I think the instructor for that is more
important than the twin right now. Thanks again Michael.

On 20 Sep 2005 16:31:46 -0700, "Michael"
wrote:

Thanks for the heads up Michael. I am aware of all those classes
except for the Multi-Instrument can you take that class at your local
flight school or do I need to find a different avenue for that.

If your local flight school has a twin, you can take the
multi-instrument there. Some do, some don't. Note that they may not
call it multi-instrument. When you take a multi ride as an instrument
rated private pilot, you have the option of taking a VFR-only ride (and
getting a VFR-only multi, your instrument privileges restricted to
singles) or a ride with IFR components (an engine failure on
instruments and a single engine approach) that will give you IFR
privileges in the twin. The latter is what you want.

The class you will definitely need to travel to is the one that will
get you a Citation type rating.

Michael

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 23:50:30 GMT, Steve wrote
in ::

I'll look for flight schools with twins first
and see if I can get a good match with the instructors.


Where are you located? Are you in Orange County, CA?

I'm going to add something that noone else has offered up yet. Go down to
your local flight school, wherever it is, and talk to an instructor, ask
questions.... take notes, you may or may not like what you hear. Think
practical here.

If 3mil is too much to spend for a jet and training, don't bother wiht the
jet. Even if you got one for less then a million, the fixed annual
inspection/maintenance costs are outrageously high, figure in fuel and other
variable operational costs and you can easilly be spending in excess of 2
thousand bux an hour to fly depending on how much you fly the thing.

As far as training... Learn in a single engine piston aircraft, trust me, it
will make you a much safer pilot. Frankly I don't want to fly in the same
piece of sky as a jet with a pilot that has little or no piston experience.
Why do I say that? In the jet you learn how to operate a machine, punch
buttons, occasionally handfly. In the smaller planes you really learn how
to AVIATE, not simply a matter of "driving the airplane" but FLYING the
airplane in an everchanging environment where everyone IS out to get you (or
so you should tell yourself so you keep your head on a swivle to make sure
they miss). Also consider an instrument approach, in a small play you could
easilly have as long as five minutes to execute the inbound portion of the
approach and landing, which means you have five mintues to correct for any
minor deviations in coures and altitude, much easier to learn to fly in
(even then it will feel like you are trying to catch up to the airplane),
cus there WILL be deviaitons in course and altitude, even for a guy with
thousands and thousands of hours of flying. In the jet your inbound course
and landing can happein in less than two minutes, meaning if you "Eff it up
a little" your responses should be more then twice as quick, WITHOUT
overcorrecting, much better to learn this in a small plane, and step it up
to faster and faster planes as you gain profeciency. (Tell me, would you
ever expect success in sacking an NFL quarterback without lots and lots of
practice and intermediate steps?). Figure on around 3-6 months to get your
private pilot and instrument ratings. Once thats out of the way I would
actually suggest you go for a multi-commercial-instrument, its not a route
many people take, but is a very good option, basically you have to learn all
the multi engine manuevers, and execute them to commercial standards, may
have to learn seperate commercial manuevers depending on the particular
aircraft (I know you probably won't have to do a Power Off Precision Landing
in a multi engine plane, but you may need to do a chandel or something
similar if its safe to do so in that particular plane), add on a single
engine instrument approach in there somewhere and you've got your Commercial
Multi Instrument. Regs also require you to have 250 hours (and several
other requirements) to take your commercial checkride, excellent
oppertunities to learn some aviation on your own time without an instructor
holding your hand the entire way, I would hate to see your first solo
instrument approach happen in a Jet. You can easilly get all of this done
in less than a year if you suck it up and do it.

I don't like pilots that are afraid to fly, at the same time I REALLY dont'
like pilots that think they can fly..... Don't let yourself get into these
two catagories, find a nice happy medium of safety minded caution and
confidence in skills, don't be an aviation pussy that is afraid of the
airplane, but at the same time don't be cocky to the point you end up dead,
or worse, end up haveing to live with the fact that you made other people
dead).


Also the advantage of doing the commercial multi route would insure that you
have at least 250 hours by the time you start flying jets (and completing
the appropriate type training course). Consider that you will likely have
to have an instructor or other qualified pilot sitting in the right seat
of the jet to keep the insurance company happy till you get to at LEAST 500
hours total time, and possibly to 1000 hours JET TIME. Having that 250 out
of the way may reduce how long you have to have that seat warmer with out
(and concidentally that seat warmer may like to get paid for his/her time!)

Also consider a multi or single engine turboprop aircraft instead of the
jet, they will likely be cheaper to buy and fly then a jet, and true, you
may not be able to fly coast to coast in a single leg, but you can still do
it a hellova lot faster than driving, AND you can fly into airports a
turbojet/fan may not be able to get in and out of (there are a lot more
runways out there less than 5000 feet long, then there are runways 5000'
long or greater) For this reason my ultimate millionare fun toy would be a
Beech C-90 King Air, reasonably quick, excellent utility, small enough to
fit in most hangers, plus they sound cool.


Damn... i don't post often, but when i do... i get a bit long winded...




"Steve" wrote in message
. ..


I'm considering taking up flying as a hobby. It's something I've been
wanting to do
since I was a kid. The ultimate goal is to learn how to fly lear jets or
should I say private
light jets. What flight training classes would I have to take and how many
hrs would I
have to perform. I can pretty much fly as many times a week as necessary
to get the
training my job schedule is highly flexible. I have noticed that most
courses run from 5
to 7 k. To get a private pilots license. But what would it take to have
the licensing to fly
a lear. And can those courses be taken right after getting my PPL. I saw
where I could
get a PPL for 8,000 and get instrument training for another 6,000. Is
there another
course needed to fly a lear and can all the classes be taken concurrently.