Aviation Pioneers Return to Chicago Lakefront

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

So maybe you traveled this part of LM near north ave beach, maybe not.
But in the summer it IS crowded and anyone playing Chuck Yeager needs
to grow up.


Playing Chuck Yeager? What does that mean? Boat traffic needs to lookout
for seaplane traffic. The seaplane traffic is already looking out for boat
traffic and has as much right to operate on the lake as boat traffic does.



Or have you forgotten the MIAMI WRECK ??

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/20..._470x276,0.jpg

wrote:
George Patterson wrote:

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:


Ehh? Very close to ORD the controlled airspace goes down to the surface.
None of that surface is Lake Michigan, however.

Then it would be pretty hard for a seaplane to be taking off there, wouldn't it.


Along most of the Illinois Lake Michigan shoreline controlled airspace
begins at 700' AGL.

I've got the sectional right in front of me. The class B floor is 3,000' or
higher over the lake. Now, you can be an asshole and try to pick nits if you
like, but THERE'S NO REQUIREMENT FOR THAT SEAPLANE TO TALK TO THE ORD
CONTROLLERS PRIOR TO THAT TAKEOFF, NOR WOULD THE ORD CONTROLLERS WANT TO HEAR
FROM HIM.


From a practical matter, does the seaplane have any duty to radio that
they're taking off? What about any traffic flying in back of the
seaplane, in blind spots? And ORD arr. and dep. traffic appears lower
than 3000'
near the Chicago shore.

JG

But the traffic is not below 3000 feet over the water and the departing
traffic from the water would be broadcasting on a separate frequency
from the airliners in any case. The landing traffic would be looking at
the water where they are landing and has the responsibility to ensure
that the area is clear.

by "Doug" anothername@[EMAIL PROTECTED] Jan 13, 2006 at 02:49 PM


I wonder who has jurisdiction over the use of the surface of the water
on Lake Michigan in that area. Wisconson, Illinois, Michigan, Chicago
or the Federal governement or ....? Surely NOT the Chicago police
department. I don't know of any laws prohibiting landing of a Seaplane
on Lake Michigan, but there may be some that I don't know of. Also it
depends on WHERE on Lake Michigan. The harbors are one jurisdiction and
the Lake is another and just where you are on the lake matters also.

According to a publication I read, there is one large area over Lake
Michigan, adjacent to the Sheboygan area, that is restricted airspace to
provide space for a program called Rockets for Schools. It was approved
decades ago by the FAA to provide high school students a place to launch
sub-orbital small scale rockets.

The Great Lakes Aeorspace and Science Center at the Sheboygan Armory may
see a future (private) rocket launch facility built, I read.

wrote in message
ps.com...

From a practical matter, does the seaplane have any duty to radio that
they're taking off?


No.



What about any traffic flying in back of the seaplane, in blind spots?


That traffic must see and avoid the seaplane.



And ORD arr. and dep. traffic appears lower than 3000'
near the Chicago shore.


It isn't.

wrote in message
ups.com...
http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/20..._470x276,0.jpg


Were you trying to make a point?

Chicago Police Marine Unit have jurisdiction out 3 miles along the city
limits. It doesn't matter. So far, they don't prohibit seaplane operations.
According to City Ordinance confirmed by me with the Chicago Police, they
view planes in the sky as not their problem. Planes on the water are treated
like boats. Further out is Coast Guard jurisdiction and has practically no
special restrictions.

I have landed inside the breakwalls just off Navy Pier. The timing was
right - waves and boat traffic were low. The Chicago Police monitor marine
channel 16 and are very knowledgeable and friendly.

There are boating restrictions that apply to seaplanes on the water. Like,
no boats within 150 feet of marked beaches, no wake zones, etc. As long as
you abide by those rules, the Police are more interested in taking pictures
and asking questions than causing a fuss.

If I think it is likely that I will be landing in their back yard (so to
speak), I call them with my name, N number, a description of the plane, and
the fact that I will be monitoring channel 16 on the water. The last time,
they came out, called me by name and asked to come along side. They had a
pot of coffee in the galley and I ended up spending about 45 minutes with
them. Nice guys!

jgrove24 sounds a bit scared but berating him (or her) here does nothing to
promote aviation. The references to low flying ORD traffic is either a
misjudgment of altitude (easy to do for the novice) or a reference to
non-ORD traffic flying under the Class B. Either way, there is certainly a
risk which should be acknowledged. I happen to think it is a very small risk
of collision and an incredibly small risk of damage to the land-based
population should tragedy strike.

The recent move by an alderman to suggest a restriction against seaplanes to
avoid unnecessary calls to 911 will probably go away but we continue to
monitor the situation. Of course, the ordinance is a ridiculous response but
it has good company with the actions of the mayor. The best counter-response
is reasoned education, not flame throwing. I'll take the same path with
jgrove24.

--
-------------------------------
Travis



"Skylune" wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
by "Doug" anothername@[EMAIL PROTECTED] Jan 13, 2006 at 02:49 PM


I wonder who has jurisdiction over the use of the surface of the water
on Lake Michigan in that area. Wisconson, Illinois, Michigan, Chicago
or the Federal governement or ....? Surely NOT the Chicago police
department. I don't know of any laws prohibiting landing of a Seaplane
on Lake Michigan, but there may be some that I don't know of. Also it
depends on WHERE on Lake Michigan. The harbors are one jurisdiction and
the Lake is another and just where you are on the lake matters also.

According to a publication I read, there is one large area over Lake
Michigan, adjacent to the Sheboygan area, that is restricted airspace to
provide space for a program called Rockets for Schools. It was approved
decades ago by the FAA to provide high school students a place to launch
sub-orbital small scale rockets.

The Great Lakes Aeorspace and Science Center at the Sheboygan Armory may
see a future (private) rocket launch facility built, I read.

Interesting. Are there any docks you can dock a Seaplane at Chicago
Lakefront? What kind of Seaplane do you fly, Travis?

As far as I can tell, there are no publicly accessible docks that would work
with any kind of floatplane.

I forget who it was but somebody was running for office and was going to
land a Grumman off Navy Pier and make a grand entrance to a campaign stop.
They never did it because of high winds on that day but the plan was to moor
the plane and use a shuttle to get to shore. I take that to mean that there
are no places to easily get a shore without getting your feet wet.

I fly a Lake Buccaneer.

--
-------------------------------
Travis
"Doug" wrote in message
oups.com...
Interesting. Are there any docks you can dock a Seaplane at Chicago
Lakefront? What kind of Seaplane do you fly, Travis?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
wrote in message
ps.com...

From a practical matter, does the seaplane have any duty to radio that
they're taking off?


No.



What about any traffic flying in back of the seaplane, in blind spots?


That traffic must see and avoid the seaplane.



And ORD arr. and dep. traffic appears lower than 3000'
near the Chicago shore.


It isn't.

If you want to see seaplanes in a busy harbour, go to Vancouver. In the
January "Canadian Aviator", an article describes how Vancouver Harbour
ATC manages floatplanes, helicopters, freighters and cruise ships from
the worlds tallest control tower. The magazine is at
http://www.canadianaviatormagazine.com/ but the latest issue is not up
yet.

John Halpenny

After years and years of daily participation in the
rec.aviation.piloting newsgroup, George Patterson seems to have moved
on. Why would he leave without saying goodbye?


On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 02:55:27 GMT, George Patterson
wrote in z8WCf.546$OY4.296@trndny02::

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

Ehh? Very close to ORD the controlled airspace goes down to the surface.
None of that surface is Lake Michigan, however.

Then it would be pretty hard for a seaplane to be taking off there, wouldn't it.

Along most of the Illinois Lake Michigan shoreline controlled airspace
begins at 700' AGL.

I've got the sectional right in front of me. The class B floor is 3,000' or
higher over the lake. Now, you can be an asshole and try to pick nits if you
like, but THERE'S NO REQUIREMENT FOR THAT SEAPLANE TO TALK TO THE ORD
CONTROLLERS PRIOR TO THAT TAKEOFF, NOR WOULD THE ORD CONTROLLERS WANT TO HEAR
FROM HIM.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.