Avionics Help/Recommendations Neede

You may have seen some of my threads over the past 6-8 months, about an
unpredictable flakey radio problem I was having. It seemed to have
been resolved by replacing a relay in the audio panel.

I have flown the plane for a few months now, with no issues, until
recently. I have encountered the same symptoms I was having in the
past (no sidetone, when transmitting), but have been able to resolve it
by moving the audio panel around (usually, pulling it halfway out,
reseating it and tightening up the screw to secure it to the tray).
I'm not sure if the relay was "ever" the problem, but all I know is
that replacing it and putting the audio panel back in, bought me a few
months of flying, which I was unable to get before, even after having
removed and reseated the audio panel on several occaisions.

My point??? I'm done! I want to jump into the IFR system and not
constantly be worrying about how fresh my batteries are in my handheld,
because it's only a matter of time before I'm lost comms!

I currently have and old Cessna ARC audio panel, and a generic intercom
with a volume knob, squelch knob and pilot isolation switch. I also
have a Narco Mark 12D radio with VOR indicator, an INOP ADF, a
standalone Narco NAV122 with LOC/GS, and an old standard Cessna
transponder (altitude encoding).

I don't have DME, which I would really like to have, and I don't have a
second radio. This has directed my focus towards some day putting in a
GNS 430, and getting both as a bonus, but that's just not in the budget
at the moment! :-(

What is probably most practical for me, is to do a few small things now
and keep myself flying regularly, and make the big purchases down the
road (hopefully). I don't, however, want to keep buying used/older
equipment off of eBay or where-ever and get 3 more months of flying,
only to be in the same boat 3 months later.

My thought is a new audio panel with the intercom built in, and
removing the old audio panel and intercom. I know there is some
rewiring involved but don't know enough about it to appreciate what the
extent of that would be? I would also like to have something installed
that would be compatible with panel that would be a farily ideal
end-state panel, after upgrades over the next few years.

Is it reasonable to do what I am looking to do, in the $1500-$2000
range, or am I dreaming? (Just the audio panel/intercom upgrade, fully
installed)

I've solicited and received feedback on IFR certified GPS's in the
past, but I'm not so sure an IFR certified GPS is a requirement for me?
I've only considered the 430, to get DME and additional COM
capabilities out of it. I would be completely happy with a handheld,
but would need to consider an additional COM and DME with that in mind.

I feel like a deer in the headlights here and have no idea which
direction to go. Any and all feedback will be greatly appreciated.

The one kicker for me is the budget. I'll probably have to go the
upgrade vs. fix route and nibble away at it a little at a time, rather
than drop it off for a major panel upgrade. I just want to make sure
I'm nibbling toward an end goal, and not just hodgepodging a panel
together, entirely out of budgetary constraints.

My short term goal is to get back in the air and get some more IFR
experience. I'm really not interested in getting some actual lost com
experience... ;-)

Thanks in advance for any recommendations!
Todd

CAUTION. BLATANT COMMERCIAL HUCKSTERISM FOLLOWS.

www.rstengineering.com Have a gander at the RST-565.

Jim




Is it reasonable to do what I am looking to do, in the $1500-$2000
range, or am I dreaming? (Just the audio panel/intercom upgrade, fully
installed)

My thought is a new audio panel with the intercom built in, and
removing the old audio panel and intercom. I know there is some
rewiring involved but don't know enough about it to appreciate what the
extent of that would be? I would also like to have something installed
that would be compatible with panel that would be a farily ideal
end-state panel, after upgrades over the next few years.

Is it reasonable to do what I am looking to do, in the $1500-$2000
range, or am I dreaming? (Just the audio panel/intercom upgrade, fully
installed)

The one kicker for me is the budget. I'll probably have to go the
upgrade vs. fix route and nibble away at it a little at a time, rather
than drop it off for a major panel upgrade. I just want to make sure
I'm nibbling toward an end goal, and not just hodgepodging a panel
together, entirely out of budgetary constraints.


Thanks in advance for any recommendations!
Todd

Hi Todd,

The cost of install at a shop will likely be about equal to or a bit
more than the cost of an audio panel/intercom. If you are trying to be
cost conscious, look at install costs as well as the cost of the
hardware. One thing to consider is that if you buy equipment used or
from a discount seller, then take it in to a shop to install, the shop
may not be too anxious to do the work.

On the other hand, you may be able to do some of the work yourself, as
long as it is supervised and approved by an IA. The simplest upgrade
to your current panel might be to get a KMA20 or KMA24 from ebay and
use it to replace your ARC unit. You have no guarantee on condition or
serviceability of the unit. An IA would have to fill out a form 337
and submit it to OK City. This will list the airworthiness approval
for the parts as well as installation methods - FAA AC 43-13. The
equipment list and W&B need will be updated to reflect the change. I
have done this in the past and it has worked out. However, I've worked
in the aviation industry for over 25 years, have some applicable
experience, and a good relationship with a local IA. We did everything
by the book and the FAA approved the changes. Once you see the paper
trail and detail work that is needed for such a job, you'll understand
the cost drivers that go into equipment installation.

If you are like most folks, you will need to have a shop do the
installation. It would be good to find out ahead of time whether they
expect to sell and install, or if they are willing to install customer
furnished equipment.

Since you already have an intercom and audio panel, you don't have to
tear out the interior to run wires to mic/phone jacks, provided you
already have them at all stations. The wiring that goes to the new
audio/intercom is already behind the panel, and just needs to be
terminated on the new connector. As I recall, the ARC audio panels are
taller than current solid state units, so a tray replacement would
either involve sliding other radios up, or a spacer of some type.

As far as equipment goes, I can highly recommend the audio panels and
intercoms from PS Engineering. I installed one of their intercoms in a
plane I owned and liked it. I have one of their intercoms in my
current plane, although I have a KMA 24 audio panel that was in the
plane when I bought it. If I were buying a new audio panel, intercom
or combo unit for my plane, PS Engineering would be my choice, based on
my personal experience. There are others that make good equipment.

If you just want a new replacement for your existing audio panel and
intercom, they have some combination units that would work well, such
as the PM6000. If you want to upgrade and pinch pennies, you might do
as well by replacing the ARC audio panel with another audio panel, say
a used KMA 24. Units on ebay run from $300-$600, and some come with a
yellow tag, which would be needed on the form 337 entry to prove
airworthiness. You could replace the old intercom with a new unit from
PS Engineering or Sigtronics, probably around $400 new.

Good luck,
Brian

On the other hand, you may be able to do some of the work yourself, as
long as it is supervised and approved by an IA.

That is not true. An A&P can logbook enter a minor modification.



An IA would have to fill out a form 337
and submit it to OK City.

Only if your A&P is not skilled enough to avoid a paperwork blizzard.



We did everything
by the book and the FAA approved the changes. Once you see the paper
trail and detail work that is needed for such a job, you'll understand
the cost drivers that go into equipment installation.

Once you understand that being paid $$ an hour for a paperwork mill is a lot
easier than being paid the same $$ for sweating greasy wrenches, you will
understand why a lot of mechanics choose to do their "work" in an air
conditioned office with a pen. Hey, it's only your money, right?




Units on ebay run from $300-$600, and some come with a
yellow tag, which would be needed on the form 337 entry to prove
airworthiness.

The yellow tag means nothing other than that the unit met its internal
specifications at the time it was tested. It has absolutely nothing to do
with being airworthy.

Jim
A&P, IA

Hi Jim,

Mea Culpa - not intending to start a flame war, just respond to the
original poster's request.

All of the persons I know with IA are also A&Ps. As you correctly
state, many skilled A&Ps can replace an existing component with one of
a different manufacture and record it as a minor change in the logbook.
In my own experience, some A&Ps are more skilled or motivated than
others in making logbook entries.

I have indeed installed equipment in my plane, under the supervision of
an IA A&P. This work was recorded in the logbook, and a form 337 was
completed and sent to OK City. The 337 is hardly a paperwork blizzard.
It is one page, with standard blocks for information on the front, and
a space on the back to describe the change. In my own case, it was
pretty straightforward. I'm sure others have run into problems of one
sort or another with the 337.

Of course you are correct and precise about the yellow tag meaning that
it has been checked to specifications. Airworthy parts have either PMA
or TSO. The equipment I installed had PMA and a yellow tag (since it
was not new equipment), which I stapled into the logbook.

Brian

"FlyWithTwo" wrote in message
oups.com...

All of the persons I know with IA are also A&Ps.

The A&P is a requirement to hold an IA.


As you correctly
state, many skilled A&Ps can replace an existing component with one of
a different manufacture and record it as a minor change in the logbook.

To quote directly from an FAA Advisory Circular, "Whether a modification is
major or minor is determined in part by the person responsible for the
modification..."



The 337 is hardly a paperwork blizzard.
It is one page, with standard blocks for information on the front, and
a space on the back to describe the change. In my own case, it was
pretty straightforward. I'm sure others have run into problems of one
sort or another with the 337.

Having done a few dozen dozen 337s, I'm fairly familiar with what they look
like. Try telling your "straightforward" to somebody like Jay Honeck who
got gigged by a local FAA weenie on a 337 lamp installation.




Of course you are correct and precise about the yellow tag meaning that
it has been checked to specifications. Airworthy parts have either PMA
or TSO.

Oy, here we go again. Airworthy parts do not require PMA or TSO. Not. No.
Nada. Nein. I have here in my hand a small piece of aluminum that I have
drilled, bent, and alodined that is going to be part of a required engine
baffling. That piece of aluminum had nothing but the alloy stamped on it
when I started. Are you telling me that it is unairworthy because it wasn't
made to PMA or TSO? Bzzzzt. Are you also telling me that it is going to
require a 337 to bolt it onto the engine? Bzzzzt.


Jim

FlyWithTwo wrote:
Hi Todd,

Since you already have an intercom and audio panel, you don't have to
tear out the interior to run wires to mic/phone jacks, provided you
already have them at all stations. The wiring that goes to the new
audio/intercom is already behind the panel, and just needs to be
terminated on the new connector.

I disagree.
The wiring is no doubt incredibly old and the insulation, probably
close to crumbling. What's the point of doing an upgrade of the electronics
if the same 'transport medium' is used? Pull out the interior, and while
you're at it, you have the opportunity to check the insulation against
the airframe, make sure there's no corrosion, etc. As the owner, the
interior comes under the category of owner-permitted maintenance. And,
with the avionics A&P's supervision, you can also run new wiring
at the same time. Take the time to do it right.

I do agree wholeheartedly about the PSEngineering intercom. I
put one in (rather, the avionics shop did) a few years ago and am
very happy both with the unit and support from the company -- a number
of the PSEng. people frequent this newsgroup, BTW.

Thanks, so far, for the responses... I'm not ignoring them, just
digesting them... ;-)

I'm not afraid of getting my hands dirty, but am thinking about the
implications and the logistics of going down that road. Evening and
weekends are really the only times I would be able to work on it, and I
don't have any friends that are A&P's or IA's. My mechanic and another
mechanic I know would not likely be excited to help me on evenings or
weekends, just so I can save money.

I would actually love to do something like this, and would love to know
as much as possible about my airplane, and its systems, but I also
recognize that my mechanic aquaintences have businesses to run and
bills to pay, and helping me learn more about my airplane on their free
time might not be a high priority for them.

I haven't talked to any local avionics shops yet, as I was looking to
get feedback here first, so I could have my ducks in a row. I don't
know yet what a typical shops policy is on bringing in equipment and
having them install it, as Brian pointed out.

I would really like to have a long term plan, so that as components of
the stack go belly up, I will already have some idea of what the plan
was for that component anyway. Right now I just need an audio
panel/intercom. I really need a second com too, but as Doug pointed
out, I "could" plug a handheld into a music input of an intercom. My
current intercom doesn't support that, but most new ones do seem to. I
think my "long term" plan would include a second panel mounted com,
with a handheld to be used in case of an electrical failure.

ADF... Don't want it, don't need it. Would open up a lot of space in
the stack if it weren't there.

DME... I would like some kind of "legal" distance measuring display
mechanism in the plane, as there are a lot of approaches that require
DME, and many fixes that are not identifiable from a VOR(s). A
handheld GPS will be a fantastic addition for situational awareness,
but doesn't make for a legal option when DME is required

I "am" willing to take the time and do it right, but certain financial
limitations apply. If somone's interpretation of doing it right is
installing a $30,000 Garmin stack, that just would not be possible.
However if replacing the wire, while replacing the component is doing
it right, then I'm in... It would just be a matter of working out the
previous logistical issues and doing it myself or making that one of
the requirements for any avionics shop that might be doing the work for
me.

Thanks for the responses! I'm still feeling a bit like a wide-eyed
deer looking into the light, but this too shall pass.

Best Regards,
Todd

This is how I have done the 182, the 172 before that, and the 170 before
that.

Radios will change. Audio panels will change. Intercoms will change. The
182 started out life with a 90 channel MK-12 and a Lear ADF. By my count,
it has gone through 43 separate and individual avionics changes in its 50
year history. That's about one every year or so.

None of the radios in the 182 are directly connected to the audio panel, and
I have dual King 170Bs, an amateur (ham) 2 meter rig, and an XM satellite
music radio all running through the audio panel.

Here's the deal, and terminal strip is the mantra. Call up www.mouser.com
and search for "Cinch series 140" (without the quotation marks). It will
tell you that to see the device click on "page 1137". If you are on dialup,
this page will take about a minute to load.

Every radio has its own personal 8-pin terminal strip. Power, ground,
speaker, phones, mic audio, mic key, lights, and a spare. But it doesn't
stop there. Go back to the Mouser search page and search for "Molex .062" "
(without the quotation marks but with the "inch mark after .062). This is a
series of small nylon connectors that go for a couple of bucks each. Been
using both terminal strips and nylon connectors for forty years without a
single failure.

Now, the radio comes with a horrendously expensive (and generally made out
of unobtanium) connector. That connector gets wired to an "intermediate"
nylon connector, and the nylon connector gets wired to the terminal strip.
The terminal strip also gets wired to the audio panel. Thus, to change
audio panels, I simply remove the wires from the terminal strips and run the
new wires to the terminal strips. TO change a radio, I simply wire the new
radio connector into one half of the intermediate connector and it is done.

The terminal strips all reside on a sheet of thin aluminum that is bolted to
the bottom of the radio rack. Why the bottom? Because if I'm having
trouble with a radio, all the connections to the radio are right there in
plain sight for troubleshooting.

I do not claim inventor rights to the terminal strip idea. I got it from
working on Baby Boeings. That is how Boeing makes connections. I do claim
inventor rights to the intermediate "Karmic Connector" idea. (Karmic is
what my editor at Kitplanes named it ... it stands for "Kitplanes Aircraft
Radio Middle Intermediate Connector" or some other hogwash like that.

As to your friendly local A&P, nobody ever said that they need to be looking
over your shoulder every step of the way. So long as you go in with a plan
that they can see, and that they can observe, and once you earn their trust,
you go in with the plan and they inspect the final product weeks or months
later.

Some tips: Get yourself a Mouser print catalog by calling them up and
asking for one. We dye the connectors to color code them for male and
female pins -- nylon will dye red, black, green, yellow, blue ... in Rit
fabric dye at room temperature in a couple of days, or in hot water in a
couple of minutes. Use crimp terminals on all the wires at the terminal
blocks. A plain old ten dollar crimp tool can make every bit as good a
connection as the $150 ratchet crimp tool. When you put the male and female
pins on the wires for the nylon connectors, crimp AND solder them. Get a
shareware schematic drawing program for your wiring diagrams -- your
mechanic will be impressed.

Last ... you are wondering what second radio to put in. While you are
wondering, I have a perfectly good Com-11 that is gathering dust on the
shelf. You are welcome to borrow it until you decide, but a decent older
Narking radio on ebay is not a bad deal.

Finally, if you get REAL serious about this stuff and understand that I
won't be available to answer questions right away, and as I understand it
you live in Georgetown about 20 miles south of me, I'll take on the
inspection job IF you report blow-by-blow progress to this newsgroup. I'll
even loan you the schematic drawing program with a couple of samples from
the 182 files. It would be nice if we could figure out how to ferry the
airplane up to Grass Valley for the inspections, then you fly it home with
the signoff (or a list of squawks to clean up).

No matter WHOSE audio panel you use, or WHOSE radio you use, it will be
absolutely mandatory for you to find a pinout of the connector. A good
starting place is Bob Nuckoll's page at www.aeroelectric.com .

Interested?

Jim

(Jav, ya wanna chime in here?)


"three-eight-hotel" wrote in message
oups.com...

Thanks, so far, for the responses... I'm not ignoring them, just
digesting them... ;-)

I'm not afraid of getting my hands dirty, but am thinking about the
implications and the logistics of going down that road. Evening and
weekends are really the only times I would be able to work on it, and I
don't have any friends that are A&P's or IA's. My mechanic and another
mechanic I know would not likely be excited to help me on evenings or
weekends, just so I can save money.

("RST Engineering" wrote)
It would be nice if we could figure out how to ferry the airplane up to
Grass Valley for the inspections, then you fly it home with the signoff
(or a list of squawks to clean up).


Nice write-up Jim. I've saved it to my FLYING folder. Some day I need to
sub-divide that FLYING folder - it's getting full.

This is where I'm a horrible, horrible person.
I suggest - from 1,280.5 nm away...

In the none too distant futu
Mark things INOP.
Fly plane 20 miles north, up to Grass Valley (GOO!!!)

.... just a minute, I need to clear my eyes and catch my breath. GOO? Ok. I'm
goo-d to go. Oops, no I'm not. Hehehehehe. Ahhhhh ...[sigh] ..."whew!"
Anyway.

Plane will be waiting for person who will be doing the inspection.
Get inspected. Plane, too.
[Review squawk list, if any]
Get sign-off.
Fly home.
Do not make eye contact and do not speak to anyone at your local field.
Return home. Shower.

Am I bad?


Montblack