Glider Crash - Minden?

The reality is that it is incredibly difficult to see converging traffic
that is approaching at 200-300 knots.

Mike Schumann

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:Zn6Jg.3900$nR2.1435@trnddc03...
kirk.stant wrote:
Hmm, the glider is thermalling - probably the easiest thing in the air
to see from another aircraft approaching.

So much for professional pilots looking out the window.

If the glider had been cruising I could understand it. I've lost
gliders I've been following when I knew where they were. But there is
little excuse in a two-crew cockpit to miss something as substantial as
an 18 meter glider thermalling in front of you!

A thermalling glider should be able to see approaching aircraft more
easily, too. Quite different from being run down by a faster aircraft
coming up behind. We probably shouldn't be too smug at this point, until
we know the facts for sure.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

Is that an appropriate and prudent speed to fly in an area know for soaring?

"Mike Schumann" wrote in message
nk.net...
The reality is that it is incredibly difficult to see converging traffic
that is approaching at 200-300 knots.

Mike Schumann

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:Zn6Jg.3900$nR2.1435@trnddc03...
kirk.stant wrote:
Hmm, the glider is thermalling - probably the easiest thing in the air
to see from another aircraft approaching.

So much for professional pilots looking out the window.

If the glider had been cruising I could understand it. I've lost
gliders I've been following when I knew where they were. But there is
little excuse in a two-crew cockpit to miss something as substantial as
an 18 meter glider thermalling in front of you!

A thermalling glider should be able to see approaching aircraft more
easily, too. Quite different from being run down by a faster aircraft
coming up behind. We probably shouldn't be too smug at this point, until
we know the facts for sure.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

We know how to recognize a thermaling glider from far off. But the glider
can disappear during two parts of the circle even when we know where to
look. And the jet jock probably does not know what to look for or to
understand the significance of what (s)he sees.

A thermalling glider has a moving blind spot that may be 15 seconds or more.
Not much-but how much distance can a bizjet cover in 15 seconds? Remember to
increase the TAS (and thus GS) by 2% per thousand feet over and above the
IAS.---The jet can go from a speck to very big in that distance.

--
Hartley Falbaum
DG800B "KF" USA


"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:Zn6Jg.3900$nR2.1435@trnddc03...
kirk.stant wrote:
Hmm, the glider is thermalling - probably the easiest thing in the air
to see from another aircraft approaching.


A thermalling glider should be able to see approaching aircraft more
easily, too. Quite different from being run down by a faster aircraft
coming up behind. We probably shouldn't be too smug at this point, until
we know the facts for sure.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

HL Falbaum wrote:
We know how to recognize a thermaling glider from far off. But the glider
can disappear during two parts of the circle even when we know where to
look. And the jet jock probably does not know what to look for or to
understand the significance of what (s)he sees.

A thermalling glider has a moving blind spot that may be 15 seconds or more.
Not much-but how much distance can a bizjet cover in 15 seconds? Remember to
increase the TAS (and thus GS) by 2% per thousand feet over and above the
IAS.---The jet can go from a speck to very big in that distance.

Yes, and even worse, the glider goes from a tiny speck to not very big
in the same distance. It's a tough situation for see-and-avoid.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

Must be nice to walk on water!

kirk.stant wrote:
Hmm, the glider is thermalling - probably the easiest thing in the air
to see from another aircraft approaching.

So much for professional pilots looking out the window.

If the glider had been cruising I could understand it. I've lost
gliders I've been following when I knew where they were. But there is
little excuse in a two-crew cockpit to miss something as substantial as
an 18 meter glider thermalling in front of you!

In the AF we called it clearing your flightpath. Everything else is
secondary at jet speeds.

Good job getting the jet and it's valuable pax back unharmed. Love the
pic of the glider spar in the radome! But I would love to hear the
crew admit they were heads-down at the time of the collision, if that
is what really happened.

Of course, I could be totally wrong - sun, bugs on the canopy, etc...
And this assumes the glider was actually turning, of course.

Well, it's better than trying to take off on the wrong runway,
anyway...

Check 6, guys! (and 9, and 3, and 12, and...)

Kirk
66

snoop wrote:
Must be nice to walk on water!

Actually, it's the water into wine trick that really wows the crowd I
hang with...

No apologies - the bizjet should have seen the glider. The glider also
should have seen the bizjet. There may be reasons why that didn't
happen - and I'll be the first to admit I've been guilty of late
detection of aircraft nearby. If I screw up, I've got no problem
admitting it - there really isn't much room for ego where flight safety
is concerned.

But I also know from first hand that all this hysteria about closing
speed is BS. Even jet fighters can be seen in time to avoid.
Airliners are huge and almost impossible to miss. Bizjets fit in
between.

But you have to be looking.

Kirk

schrieb:

But I also know from first hand that all this hysteria about closing
speed is BS. Even jet fighters can be seen in time to avoid.

No.

http://www.bfu-web.de/cln_003/nn_415..._3X191-1-2.pdf
http://www.bfu.admin.ch/common/pdf/1598

Stefan

Water into wine? Bubba and I have been tryin' to figure out how to turn
water into Shiner Bock. Anyway, Kirk, I was looking at the Reno/Minden
area arrival procedures and almost all of them have in a BIG box the
words, Caution Intensive Glider traffic, or something to that effect.
I haven't read back through the thread, to see which arrival is in
question, but it appears to me that our local glider folks have done
their homework, with regard to putting up the big billboard for those
of us who come zipping through that airspace in hi performance
aircraft, that there are other aircraft in the area. Be aware.
I fly out of Dallas Love for work and Texas Soaring for fun. When I've
been at work and flying that one arrival, which puts us on top of TSA,
I always ask the controller, "is there any glider activity today"? Plus
I call on 123.3 to see if anyone is up. This doesn't happen that often,
but when it has been a nice day, and the possibility of glider activity
exists I do these things.
Playing the devils advocate, I was asking Bubba, in another thread,
what the chances are that the glider pilot will be asked about his
installation and use of oxygen at 16000ft. Another angle.

wrote:
snoop wrote:
Must be nice to walk on water!

Actually, it's the water into wine trick that really wows the crowd I
hang with...

No apologies - the bizjet should have seen the glider. The glider also
should have seen the bizjet. There may be reasons why that didn't
happen - and I'll be the first to admit I've been guilty of late
detection of aircraft nearby. If I screw up, I've got no problem
admitting it - there really isn't much room for ego where flight safety
is concerned.

But I also know from first hand that all this hysteria about closing
speed is BS. Even jet fighters can be seen in time to avoid.
Airliners are huge and almost impossible to miss. Bizjets fit in
between.

But you have to be looking.

Kirk

Although both aircraft were VMC, the jet may have been
(probably was) flying IFR. He may have been recieving
a radar service from Reno. If so, he should have been
passed traffic information by ATC. Even if the glider
was not transponding it would still have produced a
primary return; don't believe that myth about gliders
not providing radar returns, they do.

Mark Dickson wrote:
Although both aircraft were VMC, the jet may have been
(probably was) flying IFR. He may have been recieving
a radar service from Reno. If so, he should have been
passed traffic information by ATC. Even if the glider
was not transponding it would still have produced a
primary return; don't believe that myth about gliders
not providing radar returns, they do.

IFR does not relieve anyone of "see and avoid" when VMC. This is a
common misconception when receiving IFR handling from ATC. I think we
need to educate others as to the fact that there are aircraft above
10,000 MSL without Transponders. I have heard from more than one
airline pilot "What's he doing up here" when our field is on the
sectional and Tucson Approach puts a warning on ATIS with altitudes
we're operating at. I've had pilots defend thier position saying they
were IFR and don't even have a sectional with them to know they are in
the vicinity of a glider field.