Coordinated turns and the little ball

if the
airplane has any slip or skid on it, its easily detected using physical and
visual sensing by a well trained pilot.

What should one look for?

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
et...
if the airplane has any slip or skid on it, its easily detected using
physical and visual sensing by a well trained pilot.

What should one look for?

Its not something that's cut and dried that you can point to and say, "this
is it". The ability to determine coordination comes through experience. The
cues are quite subtle actually. They involve sight ( the lead or lag of the
nose vs the control rate input for starters). This couples with your "seat
of the pants" sensing for whether or not the tail is lined up with the
airplane.
Its all related to cues. We can all do this, and do it without thinking
about it all the time, but exactly how good we are at doing it is another
matter.
You develop this ability over time through experience. If an instructor
keeps a student on the ball for example, instead of getting the student
outside the airplane and acclimated to watching the nose and "feeling" the
airplane, this acute sensing takes much longer to develop.
I've noticed through the years when introducing licensed pilots to
aerobatics for the first time, that those who had learned to fly in very
basic airplanes like J3's or Cessna 150's with a primary panel seemed to
have a better handle on what the airplane was actually doing. These pilots
without question flew the airplane using outside references much more than
pilots coming to me from a background where their instructors had
verification of their basic flying referencing the ball on the panel.
Its not a big deal really, and most pilots can do just fine either way. I do
believe however, that using outside references early on in training has
great benefit down the line and have stressed this method all through my
career in aviation.
Its when you get into specialized flying like aerobatics, power line and
game patrol, and especially Ag flying, where the flying of the airplane has
to be second nature as opposed to constant verification through the panel of
what's going on where learning to fly this way pays for itself.
Certainly in low altitude aerobatic demonstration work flying this way is
mandatory. I will tell you flatly and without question that when doing
airshow work, aside from monitoring engine parameters during reversals, I
wouldn't even THINK of referencing a ball on my panel to verify that I was
coordinated. In fact, many acro pilots will actually take the turn and bank
out of the airplane altogether to save the weight of the system.
All this doesn't mean that an instructor should neglect an integrated method
of flight instruction where visual referencing outside the airplane and the
instrument counterpart is taught. It just means that instructors are well
advised to stress outside visual references early on so that the ability to
develop the skill to use these references properly begins to form.
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques schrieb:

I learned a long time ago on Usenet, that if someone wants to learn
something, or even exchange a friendly dialog with someone that they might
disagree with, they don't open that "request for learning" with the phrase
"Now you tell me..........".

And I learned a long time ago, and not on Usenet, that changing the
subject and accusing others to have become aggressive instead of
answering a question is a very common way of packpedaling.

As if I needed any further indication that my judgment is correct on this,

Oh no, you need not, beware! How could I dare to ask. I bow to your
infallibility.

Stefan

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Dudley Henriques schrieb:

I learned a long time ago on Usenet, that if someone wants to learn
something, or even exchange a friendly dialog with someone that they
might disagree with, they don't open that "request for learning" with the
phrase "Now you tell me..........".

And I learned a long time ago, and not on Usenet, that changing the
subject and accusing others to have become aggressive instead of answering
a question is a very common way of packpedaling.

As if I needed any further indication that my judgment is correct on
this,

Oh no, you need not, beware! How could I dare to ask. I bow to your
infallibility.

Stefan

No problem. Take care.
Dudley Henriques

Roy Smith wrote in
:

In article ,
"Dudley Henriques" wrote:

You're right. The best yaw indicator in the airplane is the nose of
the airplane. Instructors should be able to pick up the slightest
amount of uncoordination simply by watching the nose.

An interesting demo is to take you feet off the rudders, look out over
the nose, and quickly roll in full left or right aileron deflection.
Depending on how much inverse yaw your particular plane has (172's do
a great demo; Cherokees less so), you will see the nose of the plane
first get pulled off to the *outside* of the turn, then as the bank
angle gets established, start to get dragged in the right direction.


I had an instructor demonstrate this without and with rudder. It was a
good example of look and feel. Its almost as if without rudder its the
airplane that moves....and with rudder the world moves, not the plane.

"new_CFI" wrote in message
...
Roy Smith wrote in
:

In article ,
"Dudley Henriques" wrote:
I had an instructor demonstrate this without and with rudder. It was a
good example of look and feel. Its almost as if without rudder its the
airplane that moves....and with rudder the world moves, not the plane.

As you get into flying extremely high performance airplanes like the T38
Talon for example, rudder actually becomes moot. You can fly the T38,
(including aerobatics) all day long with your feet flat on the floor of the
tunnels.
Rudder applied while rolling a T38 at certain lateral deflections above 1 g
can actually couple the airplane and then be followed immediately by a
departure from controlled flight.
Dudley Henriques

Rudder applied while rolling a T38 at certain lateral deflections above 1 g
can actually couple the airplane and then be followed immediately by a
departure from controlled flight.

What does "couple" mean in this context?

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
om...
Rudder applied while rolling a T38 at certain lateral deflections above 1
g can actually couple the airplane and then be followed immediately by a
departure from controlled flight.

What does "couple" mean in this context?

The T38, because of its long mass distribution fuselage vs wings, exhibits a
very small roll inertia in comparison to its pitch and yaw inertia. If the
38 is rolled fast enough at any g above 1g, (with the airplane loaded) you
can couple the roll axis with another inertia axis, usually pitch in the
Talon. Its quite a complex issue, and involves both the inertial axis and
the aerodynamic axis of the aircraft.
The result, if a coupling occurs, is almost always a violent departure.
Its a fun ride in the T2 OCF and spin recovery program at the Naval Test
Pilot School. The T2 is more balanced in mass than the T38, but you can
deliberately couple the T2 and go for the ride of your life......its sort of
like a military Lomchavak :-) In the T38, as it is in all long and slender
high performance airplanes with short stubby wing planforms (The F104 is a
perfect example); its a very serious matter.
Dudley Henriques

If the
38 is rolled fast enough at any g above 1g, (with the airplane loaded) you
can couple the roll axis with another inertia axis, usually pitch in the
Talon. Its quite a complex issue, and involves both the inertial axis and
the aerodynamic axis of the aircraft.

Ok, I see it's interesting, but I'm still not sure what it means. Is
"pitch" referenced to the earth or to the (rolling) aircraft axis?

Is it something like "If you are rolling fast, and then stop the roll,
the aircraft will pitch towards the pilot's feet."?

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
om...
If the 38 is rolled fast enough at any g above 1g, (with the airplane loaded)
you can couple the roll axis with another inertia axis, usually pitch in the
Talon. Its quite a complex issue, and involves both the inertial axis and the
aerodynamic axis of the aircraft.

Ok, I see it's interesting, but I'm still not sure what it means. Is "pitch"
referenced to the earth or to the (rolling) aircraft axis?

I'm betting it is a motion not unlike a child's spinning top, as it slows down
too much, and starts to wobble on it's axis, right before it really wobbles and
falls down. That is when you depart from controlled flight! g

Kinda' right, Dud?
--
Jim in NC