First plane

On Tue, 5 Dec 2006 17:08:41 -0500, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea
Hawk at wow way d0t com wrote:

So you would suggest the 185 instead?

If you're going above a 182 the 205 or 206 would be your best bet in
the Cessna line. I'd make sure you had a bunch of dual in it though
as it is a much heavier airplane than what you are probably normally
used to.

HTH.
z

"Jim Carter" wrote in message
news:000e01c718c9$4885a640$4b01a8c0@omnibook6100.. .

...
Isn't the gross weight and useful load about the same on the 182 and
185? It has been 30 years since I was in one and then it was on floats
at Kenmore in Seattle, so I honestly don't remember. I would however be
a little concerned about putting a brand new pilot directly into a 185
without first getting quite a bit of experience in a T-craft or Cub or
even a 170.


Depends on the model, but from what I can find on the web - 185: gross
3200, empty 1520 with 260 ponies. "Similar" 182: 2650 gross 1650 empty 230
hp.

Move up to the 185E: 3300 gross, 1550 empty with 300 up front. 182Q II 3100,
1775, 230

Looks to be about a 500 pound useful advantage.

A 205 or 206 makes a real nice 4 place cross country bird, but man it is
expensive for just a hop over for coffee.

And you are worried about putting someone in a 185? :-)

I will admit, you do have to unlearn all the bad habits you develop if you
start out in a nosedragger. I watched my dad (after owning Navion's)
struggle with that in a C-120 that I thought was the easiest thing to fly
ever invented.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Spera ]
Posted At: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 6:44 PM
Posted To: rec.aviation.owning
Conversation: First plane
Subject: First plane


....
First off, you are a student. Most cannot handle the added distraction
of being a new owner while trying to learn how to fly AND taking
ground
school (aside from your day job/school/family). Also, you admitted
yourself you are not sure of what to buy. Get your license and fly a
while in other types of birds. Get a feel for where you want to GO
first.



Mike makes some very good points. I wouldn't really consider buying
until after you've got your license, have joined a club or two and have
flown several different models. I lusted after the Cardinal RG until I
actually flew one. Man was I disappointed in the interior head room. I
could not get the seat low enough to keep from constantly rubbing (not
occasionally bumping) my head on the overhead.

I was absolutely sure that was the bird for me, so I was crushed when I
actually discovered they are not for real tall people.

Get some experience and then buy if you can justify the hours. You might
even find a partnership works well for your missions.

In article . com,
says...
I'm a newbie working on getting a PPL.
People tell me that if I'm serious about flying, I should seriously
look into purchasing a plane - in the long run it'll be cheaper than
renting.

If I buy (used, of course, but I'm open to the possibility of
joint ownerships/partnerships),
I'd need something that seats 4 adults and a small amount of luggage.
Expected useage would be trips of a few hundred to about 500 miles.

I'm learning in a Cessna 152. My gut tells me that I'd like something
with a bit more speed than a C172, but I'm not seeking a high
performance aircraft.
High wing vs low wing is not a major issue.
Cost could be an issue.

What I seek is a table laying out performance and
payload characteristics for your basic single engine prop planes.

So what is the airplane equivalent of a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic?

Thanks in advance.

Traveller, Traumahawk, C152, even a 150 - how many seats do you want?

--
Duncan

Cory:

there's an option to download the spreadsheet at the bottom. I don't
use IE either, and refuse to get the plugin.

Fred - you may want to consider a C172 w/180 hp. The extra hp will get
you no more then 5 knots, but what a lift you'll get. Climbs with
gross weight (2550 lb) easily 1000 fpm.
I have LRT, which allows me at about 65% bhp to cruise for 5 hours.
Don't know if your
bladder will hold up, but it's very close to you specs.

My payload is 735 lb. That's not a bad payload figure. With the same
hp in a Piper, you will not get close to this figure or the 1000 fpm
either. I burn about 9.5, but use 10 gph. Now if go to a C182, you
will get close to the same payload, but burn rate is much more and the
cost to maintain is great.

I love my hybrid





fred wrote:
I'm a newbie working on getting a PPL.
People tell me that if I'm serious about flying, I should seriously
look into purchasing a plane - in the long run it'll be cheaper than
renting.

If I buy (used, of course, but I'm open to the possibility of
joint ownerships/partnerships),
I'd need something that seats 4 adults and a small amount of luggage.
Expected useage would be trips of a few hundred to about 500 miles.

I'm learning in a Cessna 152. My gut tells me that I'd like something
with a bit more speed than a C172, but I'm not seeking a high
performance aircraft.
High wing vs low wing is not a major issue.
Cost could be an issue.

What I seek is a table laying out performance and
payload characteristics for your basic single engine prop planes.

So what is the airplane equivalent of a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic?

Thanks in advance.

5pguy wrote:
Fred - you may want to consider a C172 w/180 hp. The extra hp will get
you no more then 5 knots, but what a lift you'll get. Climbs with
gross weight (2550 lb) easily 1000 fpm.
I have LRT, which allows me at about 65% bhp to cruise for 5 hours.
Don't know if your
bladder will hold up, but it's very close to you specs.

My payload is 735 lb. That's not a bad payload figure. With the same
hp in a Piper, you will not get close to this figure or the 1000 fpm
either. I burn about 9.5, but use 10 gph. Now if go to a C182, you
will get close to the same payload, but burn rate is much more and the
cost to maintain is great.

/pedantry on

You must mean your "payload with full fuel" is 735 lbs. Otherwise with 5
hours of fuel at 10 gal/hr that's 600 lbs and leaves only 135 lbs. for
passengers or freight.

"Payload" is usually used to mean the total weight of fuel, passengers,
and freight, so that you can adjust the amount of fuel carried to fit
the mission. Payload is a better measure of an aircraft's capability
than "payload with full fuel".

/pedantry off

DB

Mike Spera wrote:



First off, you are a student. Most cannot handle the added distraction
of being a new owner while trying to learn how to fly AND taking ground
school (aside from your day job/school/family).

I call BS on that. I bought a grumman cheetah while learning to fly.
It was a great learning experience. Where do you get the data for "most
cannot handle the added distraction?"

Also, you admitted
yourself you are not sure of what to buy. Get your license and fly a
while in other types of birds. Get a feel for where you want to GO first.

I agree with this.


Buying an airplane without losing your shirt (and possibly your life)
takes a bit of experience that you likely don't have. What's the hurry?

The only way to get that experience and knowledge is to go through the
process of looking and buying. Renting for years does not make anyone
more qualified to purchase an airplane compared to a newbie looking to
buy.


Why beat up your bird learning how to land? Beat up the school's plane,
then buy your own.

Perhaps - but with good instruction and the fact that you have better
understanding of the plane makes it a wash.


"Cheaper in the long run" can be elusive. You need to fly a certain
number of hours for the math to work out. Properly cared for airplanes
cost money. Many owners simply run planes out and don't properly
maintain or upgrade them. They live on a shoestring budget and roll the
dice that nothing catastrophic will happen. Some win and some lose. The
winners spout off about how "they did it". The losers say nothing and
quietly lick their wounds. I have said it before. There is plenty of
flying junk out there for sale. You likely cannot tell the difference.
This group tells many tales about deals gone bad.

What if you don't stick it out? The drop out rate for student pilots is
not small. If you quit while owning, you have to sell the beast and that
may take a while (unless you can accept a significant financial loss).

Yes, renting has many drawbacks. Dirty, beat up planes that are
unavailable when the weather is nice. But, they are usually maintained
to some minimum level of safety and they have one great advantage that
you might need right now. If anything goes wrong, you simply hand the
keys to the FBO and say "next". And, like I said, you really don't need
a premium airplane and the distractions of ownership at this point in
your flying.

Opinions vary. Good Luck.
Mike

All the rest I pretty much agree. It is not something to undertake
lightly. Best wishes to the OP.

There isn't any real airplane equivalent to the Corolla or Civic.
Those machines provide high quality for reasonable price.

172s and Cherokees are the closest to mass produced airplanes, but they
are more like Fords and Chevys - they're noisy, they corrode and leak,
and cost a lot to maintain, particularly if you live in an urban area.

As others have said, you need to fly at least 100 hrs a year to break
even, and that's a lot of flying.

Having said that, there is nothing like owning a well maintained
airplane. I started looking for one of my own when every airplane I
rented seemed to have something on the squawk list.

"fred" == fred writes:

fred I'm a newbie working on getting a PPL. People tell me that
fred if I'm serious about flying, I should seriously look into
fred purchasing a plane - in the long run it'll be cheaper than
fred renting.

Yes, but after your initial training.

fred I'd need something that seats 4 adults and a small amount of
fred luggage. Expected useage would be trips of a few hundred to
fred about 500 miles.

Keep in mind that most aircraft can't realistically fill the seats
they have: you'll be overweight typically. Especially as Americans
have supersized themselves since these aircraft were designed and
built. So if you want to fly 4 adults, even without luggage, they
better be slim and trim OR you will need a 6-seater OR you will need a
real hauler airplane, like the C-182.

Also, it might be slower, door-to-door timing, to fly to places
instead of driving, less than 300-400 miles away, depending on a
number of factors.

fred What I seek is a table laying out performance and payload
fred characteristics for your basic single engine prop planes.

There are some books out there that offer this information, though not
as handy as a single table.

fred So what is the airplane equivalent of a Toyota Corolla or
fred Honda Civic?

Well, that's the problem. There are no Toyotas or Hondas in the used
airplane market, only 25-50 year old Fords, Chevys, and Buicks. And a
few of us on these groups remember how much maintenance the old cars
required.

You're doing the right thing. Continue to take your flight training
and also continue to investigate a plane that fills your needs. I
don't know how much money you're willing to spend, but you'll probably
find that the initial cost, in the long run, isn't the big factor,
though it naturally seems so. Instead, it's the operating and annual
fixed costs, which you won't recoup, that you should be watching.

Others will know the different planes and performance better than I,
but it sounds like you might want to look at a C-182, or equivalent in
the low wing aircraft.
--
"If you give someone a program, you will frustrate them for a day; if
you teach them how to program, you will frustrate them for a
lifetime."