Rolling a Non Aerobat 150

Spins have NEVER been in the private pilot PTS. The PTS (Practical Test
Standard) only has been in existence for around 20 years or so. The last
time spins were required for a Private Certificate was back in the early
1950's or maybe the late 1940's. Note that there is nothing that prevents
an instructor from teaching spins to a student pilot. However you would
have to wear parachutes to be legal since the regs only allow spins without
the wearing of parachutes for people training for a flight instructor
certificate.

The predecessor for the PTS was the Flight Test Guides. These were slim
volumes of not more than 20 pages and about 2 or 3 inches wide and about 4
inches high. In any case they were smaller than a 3 by 5 index card. they
had very broad descriptions of maneuvers' and gave examiners and inspectors
wide latitude in what and how they wanted you to perform various maneuvers.
Part 61 was actually a much better regulation then in that it clearly made
the CFI responsible for preparing a competent pilot that was able to show
good judgment.

The predecessor regs and guidance was to list the actual maneuvers in the
reg. If you could get a monkey to somehow do the maneuver a certificate
would be issued.

Tom Inglima

"Chris G." nospam@noemail wrote in message
eenews.net...
Besides, spin training is NOT required for a private pilot certificate.
Spin AWARENESS (aka recognizing you're going to get into a spin) is
required. Spins are not part of the PTS anymore though.

I don't necessarily think that omitting spins from the PTS is the best
move the FAA has made, but I don't know the whole story. I know I'm
having my instructor make sure he teaches me spins in the 150 I'm learning
in. I believe that training in spins and spin recovery is a very
important skills that could save my life one day.

Chris


wrote:
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:46:42 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wr.giacona@coxDOTnet wrote:


wrote in message
...

On 27 Apr 2005 09:43:30 -0700, "Noah Fiedel"
wrote:


In addition, were you & your instructor wearing parachutes
as required for aerobatic flight?


Not required, since spin training is required for a rating.

Looked to me like a roll not a spin.


Oooops.

Never mind.

Note that what is said here is not true. The regs say that you can teach
any maneuver that is "required for a rating" without parachutes. This
includes spins. You can teach a student spins without a parachute(s) if
you wish.

Jim


Note that there is nothing that prevents
an instructor from teaching spins to a student pilot. However you would
have to wear parachutes to be legal since the regs only allow spins
without the wearing of parachutes for people training for a flight
instructor certificate.

RST Engineering wrote:
Note that what is said here is not true. The regs say that you can teach
any maneuver that is "required for a rating" without parachutes. This
includes spins. You can teach a student spins without a parachute(s) if
you wish.

Actually the regulation specifically mentions spins. It doesn't
matter they were required for a rating or not. The "required
for a rating" part applies to the "and other maonouvers".

The FAA has affirmed that once a manouver is required in
training (not necessarily for the checkride) for any rating
it's fare game for ANY instructional use at any time.

Except of course, while using MSFS.

Actually the regulation specifically mentions spins. It doesn't
matter they were required for a rating or not.

Well, not quite. See below:

(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the
regulations for any certificate or rating when given by-

That is, "Spins and other...", which means something different from
"Spins, and other..."

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...
Note that what is said here is not true. The regs say that you can teach
any maneuver that is "required for a rating" without parachutes. This
includes spins. You can teach a student spins without a parachute(s) if
you wish.

Jim


And, one could consider the fact that wearing a parachute or not won't make
one bit of difference (at least as far as survival is concerned) in 90+% of
the aircraft used for training if one were to find a spin to be
unrecoverable and/or if one were to pull the wings off.

For the parachute to do any good, you would have to be able to open the door
far enough to actually get out of the airplane. You could do it in a
Citabria or 150 Acro with the door release - or something like a Cub. But
anything else? Naah...

But, of course, if one were to die inside the aircraft, having a 'chute on
should be enough to assure that one would go to heaven since he and/or she
would have died while complying with FAA regulations. The rest of us will
end up in a significantly less comforable environment, eh?

Personally I think spins are fun.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com wrote in message
And, one could consider the fact that wearing a parachute or not won't
make one bit of difference (at least as far as survival is concerned) in
90+% of the aircraft used for training if one were to find a spin to be
unrecoverable and/or if one were to pull the wings off.

Why would you say this? The door would be fairly easy to open in a spin.
In a high
speed loss of control it might be very difficult to overcome aerodynamic
resistance but
it is possible to open a forward hinged door and force it open enough to
squeeze out
at even 100kts in straight flight. With a modern canopy you stand a chance
of a survivable
deployment at even a few hundred feet.

The only reason I responded to the post is to encourage anyone wearing a
parachute
to drill the procedure like any other flying skill (and I know this was a
casual usenet
post, but avoid those negative thoughts).

1. Jettison the canopy/pull the door release pins (if so equipped)
2. Grasp the door frame/strut with one hand
3. Then, release the seat belt(s) with the other hand
4. pull clear and jump
5. assume the hard arch position, look, grasp the ripcord with both hands
and pull
to full arm extension until the cables clear the housing.
6. Discard the ripcord handle and look over your right shoulder.

There was a series of articles in Soaring/Sport Aerobatics a few years ago:

http://www.silverparachutes.com/uplo...PROCEDURES.htm

I would encourage anyone to make a recreational jump, even a tandem, to
familiarize
themselves with the experience. You may find it opens the door to a whole
new
expression of aviation; after all riding in a boat ain't swimming and by the
same token
sitting in an airplane isn't really flying ...

Stay Lucky,
Todd

In rec.aviation.student Todd W. Deckard wrote:
I would encourage anyone to make a recreational jump, even a tandem, to
familiarize
themselves with the experience. You may find it opens the door to a whole
new
expression of aviation; after all riding in a boat ain't swimming and by the
same token
sitting in an airplane isn't really flying ...

Neither is dropping straight down to the earth.

.... Alan
--
Alan Gerber
PP-ASEL
gerber AT panix DOT com

In article . net,
"Todd W. Deckard" wrote:

Why would you say this? The door would be fairly easy to open in a spin.
In a high speed loss of control it might be very difficult to overcome
aerodynamic resistance but it is possible to open a forward hinged door
and force it open enough to squeeze out at even 100kts in straight flight.
With a modern canopy you stand a chance of a survivable deployment at
even a few hundred feet.

I wouldn't be too positive about those statements.
I have over 300 freefalls and 25 hours of acro in a Citabria.
The Citabria only has one door... on the right side. In a right spin,
the rate of descent is still going to be about 800 fpm with an indicated
airspeed of 45-50 mph. That's quite and airload on the inside turn side
of the airframe. Add to that centrifugal forces and getting through the
doorway after jettisoning the door will be a challenging proposition.
You have two sets of seatbelts to release, a headset to remove and a
body with a parachute attached to fit through the doorway. When you exit
you will be on the inside side of the airplane, which you have to clear
before you pull the D-ring.
Tic-toc, the clock is winding down as fast as the altimeter.
I have knowledge of only one acro pilot who successfully exited a
Decathlon.

john smith wrote:
.... snipped
the rate of descent is still going to be about 800 fpm with an indicated
airspeed of 45-50 mph. That's quite and airload on the inside turn side
.... snipped

800 fpm is surprisingly low - are you sure? The aircraft I normally fly
does about 300 feet per turn and about 1-2 seconds per turn - so being
conservative that's about 10,000 fpm.

Dave

I know of one to get out of a decathlon. It was from the back seat no less.
(It helps when the wing has departed and there is a big hole above your
head though)

Mike

john smith wrote:
In article . net,
"Todd W. Deckard" wrote:

Why would you say this? The door would be fairly easy to open in a spin.
In a high speed loss of control it might be very difficult to overcome
aerodynamic resistance but it is possible to open a forward hinged door
and force it open enough to squeeze out at even 100kts in straight flight.
With a modern canopy you stand a chance of a survivable deployment at
even a few hundred feet.

I wouldn't be too positive about those statements.
I have over 300 freefalls and 25 hours of acro in a Citabria.
The Citabria only has one door... on the right side. In a right spin,
the rate of descent is still going to be about 800 fpm with an indicated
airspeed of 45-50 mph. That's quite and airload on the inside turn side
of the airframe. Add to that centrifugal forces and getting through the
doorway after jettisoning the door will be a challenging proposition.
You have two sets of seatbelts to release, a headset to remove and a
body with a parachute attached to fit through the doorway. When you exit
you will be on the inside side of the airplane, which you have to clear
before you pull the D-ring.
Tic-toc, the clock is winding down as fast as the altimeter.
I have knowledge of only one acro pilot who successfully exited a
Decathlon.