Weather vs. Combat

How accurate is that statement and
did weather also account for more losses than combat
in previous wars (e.g: WW2, Korea, etc?)

My specialty is WWII nightfighting and I can say that, particularly in the
first half of the war, as many a/c were lost or abandoned due to weather (or
collisions in poor visibility) than to enemy action. One night off the top of
my head, a small RAF bomber force had to all abandon their aircraft due to viz
over their bases - something like 5 Wimpys, I think. On more than one occasion,
a Mosquito raid that lost no aircraft due to enemy action had to abandon their
aircraft upon return because there was no clear landing field. Such events were
not rare on either side and veteran nightfighter pilots uniformly considered
the weather every bit as much of an enemy as the other team.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

(Gordon) wrote:

My specialty is WWII nightfighting and I can say that, particularly in the
first half of the war, as many a/c were lost or abandoned due to weather (or
collisions in poor visibility) than to enemy action. One night off the top of
my head, a small RAF bomber force had to all abandon their aircraft due to viz
over their bases - something like 5 Wimpys, I think. On more than one occasion,
a Mosquito raid that lost no aircraft due to enemy action had to abandon their
aircraft upon return because there was no clear landing field. Such events were
not rare on either side and veteran nightfighter pilots uniformly considered
the weather every bit as much of an enemy as the other team.

I can think of a time or two that I would've loved to "abandon the
A/C" in Can't-See-**** conditions had I been wearing a chute.
One of my former bosses flew Huns in 'Nam and used to poo-poo
us lowly charter jockies when we'd complain about launching from
a short runway way over gross at night and in bad weather (of course,
he hadn't flown in ages and it was our asses on the line and not
his!) Granted, we weren't getting shot at but the risk was probably
just as great because we weren't launching from a nice 10,000 ft. long
runway with barriers and emergency equipment/personnel at the end
in a jet equipped with an ejection seat and the best maintenance
that money could buy. In any event, other than NDB's, what type of
instrument approaches were generally available back in WW2?

-Mike Marron

Mike Marron wrote:
In any event, other than NDB's, what type of
instrument approaches were generally available back in WW2?


Radio ranges. Pilots flew along a beam listening to dots and dashes. The tone
changed if you drifted off the beam. Some of the old timers here can explain
this a lot better than me since I didn't start flying until the late 1970's.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN


http://www.mortimerschnerd.com

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
Radio ranges. Pilots flew along a beam listening to dots and dashes.
The tone changed if you drifted off the beam. Some of the old timers
here can explain this a lot better than me since I didn't start
flying until the late 1970's.


As I think about it, the Morse that was transmitted was a series of A's and N's.
I can't remember any more than that about it.


--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN


http://www.mortimerschnerd.com

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote:

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
Radio ranges. Pilots flew along a beam listening to dots and dashes.
The tone changed if you drifted off the beam. Some of the old timers
here can explain this a lot better than me since I didn't start
flying until the late 1970's.


As I think about it, the Morse that was transmitted was a series of A's and N's.
I can't remember any more than that about it.

Four wide angle beams. Two quadrants broadcast A and two broadcast
N--one is dot/dash, the other is dash/dot (don't remember which is A
and which is N.)

When the beams overlapped, defining the published course you got a
steady tone. Veer to one side you began to discriminate A, veer off
course the other way and you got N. One course---hummmmmmmmmm.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038

From: Ed Rasimus

Four wide angle beams. Two quadrants broadcast A and two broadcast
N--one is dot/dash, the other is dash/dot (don't remember which is A
and which is N.)

When introduced in WW2 the system was called Uncle Dog and used a D (dash dot
dot) and a U (dot dot dash).


Chris Mark

"Ed Rasimus" wrote
"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote:

Four wide angle beams. Two quadrants broadcast A and two broadcast
N--one is dot/dash, the other is dash/dot (don't remember which is A
and which is N.)

When the beams overlapped, defining the published course you got a
steady tone. Veer to one side you began to discriminate A, veer off
course the other way and you got N. One course---hummmmmmmmmm.

Trivial Pursuit: N = dah dit A = dit dah

"Mike Marron" wrote in message
...
(Gordon) wrote:

My specialty is WWII nightfighting and I can say that, particularly in
the
first half of the war, as many a/c were lost or abandoned due to weather
(or
collisions in poor visibility) than to enemy action. One night off the
top of
my head, a small RAF bomber force had to all abandon their aircraft due
to viz
over their bases - something like 5 Wimpys, I think. On more than one
occasion,
a Mosquito raid that lost no aircraft due to enemy action had to abandon
their
aircraft upon return because there was no clear landing field. Such
events were
not rare on either side and veteran nightfighter pilots uniformly
considered
the weather every bit as much of an enemy as the other team.

I can think of a time or two that I would've loved to "abandon the
A/C" in Can't-See-**** conditions had I been wearing a chute.
One of my former bosses flew Huns in 'Nam and used to poo-poo
us lowly charter jockies when we'd complain about launching from
a short runway way over gross at night and in bad weather (of course,
he hadn't flown in ages and it was our asses on the line and not
his!) Granted, we weren't getting shot at but the risk was probably
just as great because we weren't launching from a nice 10,000 ft. long
runway with barriers and emergency equipment/personnel at the end
in a jet equipped with an ejection seat and the best maintenance
that money could buy. In any event, other than NDB's, what type of
instrument approaches were generally available back in WW2?

-Mike Marron


Ground controlled approach using precision radar was pioneered by the RAF in
WW2. Arthur C Clarke wrote an excellent book
called 'Glide Path' about the project (on which he worked)

The Germans had the Lorenz blind landing system and both the
Americans and British had similar systems in use pre war

In 1930 the American Bureau of standards introduced the first directional
guidance system using a transmission on 330 kHz with two tones
that were transmitted of 65 and 85.7 Hz.
In the aircraft receiver, these were received, applied to filters, detected
and used to energise a centre zero meter. The edge of the airfield was
defined
by the cone of silence over a simple beacon modulated at 40 Hz

F. Dunmore improved on the system by adding a VHF signal on 93 MHz that
was transmitted from a location at the upwind end of the runway, if the
aerial
was mounted at a suitable height, then a line of equal field strength would
approximate to the require vertical guidance pattern.

The first blind landing using this system took place in 1931

Keith

"Keith Willshaw" wrote:

Ground controlled approach using precision radar was pioneered by
the RAF in WW2. Arthur C Clarke wrote an excellent book
called 'Glide Path' about the project (on which he worked)

The Germans had the Lorenz blind landing system and both the
Americans and British had similar systems in use pre war

In 1930 the American Bureau of standards introduced the first directional
guidance system using a transmission on 330 kHz with two tones
that were transmitted of 65 and 85.7 Hz.
In the aircraft receiver, these were received, applied to filters, detected
and used to energise a centre zero meter. The edge of the airfield was
defined by the cone of silence over a simple beacon modulated at 40 Hz
F. Dunmore improved on the system by adding a VHF signal on 93 MHz that
was transmitted from a location at the upwind end of the runway, if the
aerial was mounted at a suitable height, then a line of equal field strength
would approximate to the require vertical guidance pattern.

The first blind landing using this system took place in 1931

So, in a nutshell GCA was the primary precision approach
and NDB was the primary non-precision approach used in WW2?

-Mike Marron

In article , Mike Marron
writes
In any event, other than NDB's, what type of
instrument approaches were generally available back in WW2?

NDBs (if available) would most likely be switched off over the UK to
prevent them being of use to the LW. The Germans had quite a good radio
system (Lorenz?) for giving the pilot a centreline.

--
John