Mounties Electrocute Airline Passenger

S Green wrote:
"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

International arrivals were rerouted but there were no delays in
flight schedules.

Cannot let the small matter of someone's death get in the way of business.



Cannot let the small matter of violent, disruptive behavior get in the
way of others safety.

I the taser is so insignificant, why is it so devastating?

The handheld thing are usually applied to the spine.

Ouch.



Dave S wrote:
Dave S wrote:

Larry Dighera wrote:



Perhaps. I doubt the coroner will find the passenger to have expired
as a result of the Mounties arresting the passenger. It would be
interesting to know where the darts hit the passenger. If it was
across the chest, I can see how the Taser may have
precipitated a heart attack.


I cant. A taser is not a defibrillator, nor a cardioverter. All use
electricity, but in different manners. The energy involved is much
different. The capacitors involved in medical devices such as external
defibrillators are larger than the entire taser device, and the energy
involved is orders of magnitude larger.



Larry.. for further comparison..

http://www.taser.org/specifications.html has some data.
Most specifically.. each individual energy pulse is 1.76 Joules.

When I use a defibrillator on a patient in cardiac arrest, the
recommended energy ranges are 200-360 joules per discharge. They have to
JUST to be able to get 5-10 joules of energy to the heart itself (which
is the range of energy that INTERNAL defibrillators run at - devices
that have DIRECT electrical contact with the heart. Notice again, the
taser only puts out less than 2 joules.

A police car strobe light runs about 10 joules per flash.

Aircraft strobes run in the 30 joule range

Does this put things in a perspective?

On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 18:45:08 -0500, Dave S
wrote in :

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:01:34 -0500, Dave S
wrote in :

Tazers have actually been proven to REDUCE injury rates overall, both in
suspects

Can you cite any evidence that supports that assertion?

AND in officers.. TREMENDOUSLY reduce them,

I can see how that would be true.

and associated workers comp claims.

Well, that's what's important. :-(


I will research that assertion and get back to you. Ive heard only
third-hand but from personally credible individuals that this is the
case where I live.

Overall the turds get injured less, and the cops get injured less. I
sincerely do not believe that the tasing itself is the causative factor
in apprehensive deaths. Turds.. I mean "suspects".. as a general rule
are directly responsible for the events leading to their apprehension,
and if injured, directly responsbible for causing an incident to
escalate to the point of their injury. Its really that simple.

Practically every officer in my region, to carry a taser, has to be
tased once: if this was lethal force, would they be doing that?

The workers comp thing wasn't meant to be coy. Less injured cops means
more police on the street, and more productive policing. Better use of
YOUR tax dollars at protecting YOU.

And how do you _know_ it was water and not a WMD?

Cheers

A couple of summers ago I flew he Mooney up to Vancouver. While at the
park with the kids I saw a Canadian officer (mountie, not sure)
walking around with a rather large gun. I thought this was interesting
because I didn't know they carried guns. I got a little closer and
realized what it was. No joke, it was a water gun!! Apparently he was
using it to spray an annoying squirrel. I thought the sight was so
funny I went back to the rental car to get my camera. Seeing me
approach with the camera, the mountie seemed annoyed and walked off.
How great would that have been to have caught a Canadian law
enforcement officer walking around with a giant side arm that carried
water!

-Robert

On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 18:58:59 -0500, Dave S
wrote in :

Have you
any idea how long a Taser is capable of sustained high-voltage output?

Yes

Is it controllable by the LEO?

In a fashion. Their only control with regards to this is to pull the
trigger. On or off.

Until a dart is removed, I would think the LEO could continue to apply
high-voltage until the battery was exhausted.

The ones in use in my locale (the 5 county area surrounding Houston,
Texas, by numerous city and county LEO's) have a 5 second burst per
trigger pull. They also have recording capability from a data standpoint.

As you didn't mention any requirement for periodic inspection and
certification of Tasers carried by LEOs, I presume that isn't
occurring. Is it not possible that Tasers in the field are being
operated beyond their specifications accidentally or deliberately?

Do you know specifically what data are recorded by the Taser?

On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 19:08:36 -0500, Dave S
wrote in :

Dave S wrote:
Larry Dighera wrote:


Perhaps. I doubt the coroner will find the passenger to have expired
as a result of the Mounties arresting the passenger. It would be
interesting to know where the darts hit the passenger.
If it was across the chest, I can see how the Taser may have
precipitated a heart attack.

I cant. A taser is not a defibrillator, nor a cardioverter. All use
electricity, but in different manners. The energy involved is much
different. The capacitors involved in medical devices such as external
defibrillators are larger than the entire taser device, and the energy
involved is orders of magnitude larger.


Larry.. for further comparison..

http://www.taser.org/specifications.html has some data.
Most specifically.. each individual energy pulse is 1.76 Joules.

When I use a defibrillator on a patient in cardiac arrest, the
recommended energy ranges are 200-360 joules per discharge. They have to
JUST to be able to get 5-10 joules of energy to the heart itself (which
is the range of energy that INTERNAL defibrillators run at - devices
that have DIRECT electrical contact with the heart. Notice again, the
taser only puts out less than 2 joules.

A police car strobe light runs about 10 joules per flash.

Aircraft strobes run in the 30 joule range

Does this put things in a perspective?

Yes. It does. Thank you for the information. I meant to research
that.

I'm not sure how comparing a defibrillator to a Taser justifys using
Tasers on suspects, but I personally find such use dehumanizing and
hazardous.

On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 18:45:08 -0500, Dave S
wrote in :

Turds.. I mean "suspects".. as a general rule
are directly responsible for the events leading to their apprehension,
and if injured, directly responsbible for causing an incident to
escalate to the point of their injury. Its really that simple.

Don't get me wrong, but I find your attitude toward SUSPECTS less than
respectful, to say the least. I'm sure you have encountered many
suspects who deserve to be called much worse, but in the US they are
_innocent_ suspects, regardless of how you feel toward them and
regardless of what information you may have about them, until they
have been convicted in a court of law (yes, that's the law in Texas
too). Such an attitude reflects badly on LEOs in general, and it
speaks volumes ...

I saw a piece on the NBC Nightly News recently about a patrol of four
Navy Seals on a mission in Iraq. It told the story of the soldier
leading them, and how, in the face of them surely informing Al Qaeda
about their patrol, he release some Iraqi civilians that the patrol
encountered, rather than silence them in cold blood. Sure enough, Al
Qaeda was informed, and launched 200 soldiers against the four man US
patrol that resulted in the death of the Seal who had released the
civilians. Despite the deadly danger it placed him in, he knew what
was right and just, and did it despite personal risk. That noble Seal
embodies the spirit of American justice, and he makes me proud to be
an American.

It seems many of us have forgotten that we Americans are not like much
of the world; our determination to uphold justice and freedom used to
set us apart, until the current regime in power in this country
started approving of torturing prisoners, warrantless invasion of
privacy, and trampling on our Constitution.

The leader of our country, while he was governor of Texas, put more
"criminals" to death than all the rest of the states combined, IIRC.
Perhaps such disrespect for human life and moral justice is unique to
Texas or a result of shallow insight, but it is reprehensible none the
less. It saddens me to see America losing its way through the
darkness of tyranny and injustice, and joining the unenlightened in
trampling human dignity. It always starts at the top.

The leader of our country, while he was governor of Texas, put more
"criminals" to death than all the rest of the states combined, IIRC.
Perhaps such disrespect for human life and moral justice is unique to
Texas or a result of shallow insight, but it is reprehensible none the
less. It saddens me to see America losing its way through the
darkness of tyranny and injustice, and joining the unenlightened in
trampling human dignity. It always starts at the top.

Your knowledge of American history shows definite signs of a
revisionist education.

It's only been in the last 30 years that Americans turned into the
pansies of the world. What you now call "justice" and "nobility" most
of the world called "stupid" and "ineffective".

From the debacle at Desert One (under our now media-revered Jimmy
Carter) until we invaded Afghanistan, America was viewed world-wide as
the superpower that was afraid of a fight. Sure, we'd launch a few
F-111s to drop bombs on bedouins, but it was widely assumed by tyrants
and petty dictators that America was too shell-shocked from Viet Nam
to ever put boots on the ground.

Even the Coalition's stunning success in Kuwait, during Desert Storm,
didn't fully dispel the notion that we wouldn't fight back. Guys like
Sadaam and bin Laden were encouraged by our failure to finish the
job.

IMHO, it was this perception that made us susceptible to attack. The
Islamo-Fascists continued their ever-escalating attacks through 9/11,
when America was finally shaken from its slumber and began kicking
back. Since then, the terrorists have been completely neutralized --
truly a great, historic American victory.

Of course, the liberal media won't present it that way, perhaps ever.
Remember, this is the same group that can't see Korea and Viet Nam as
anything but "American meddling in civil wars." Students of history
understand the significance of these battles, and the fact that they
were, in fact, different fronts in our (victorious) decades-long Cold
War with the Soviet Union and China.

The pendulum has now swung back, perhaps too far the other way.
Sadly, this is normal, in a republic like ours. I suspect it will be
corrected at the next election cycle. (Although, of course, it is
hopelessly simplistic to believe that anything substantive will change
as the result of a presidential election.)

Either way, I completely sympathize with Dave's point of view. Our
society has a large segment of easily identified, blatantly arrogant
scum that make up the lion's share of criminal perps. The cops know
who they are, and anyone with a brain stem knows who they are -- yet
most of the time society is at their mercy until they get caught red-
handed.

It's the domestic version of TSA strip-searching an old lady in order
to look like they're not "profiling". We know who the enemy is, but
we force our gendarmes to put on a huge show of "fairness", even if it
means shaming ourselves and making the streets more dangerous.

Dealing with that segment day after day -- as our "Thin Blue Line"
does -- would harden anyone. The police have my utmost respect.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

I'm not sure how comparing a defibrillator to a Taser justifys using
Tasers on suspects, but I personally find such use dehumanizing and
hazardous.


Perfect!

On 2007-10-18 03:42:51 -0700, Larry Dighera said:

On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 19:08:36 -0500, Dave S
wrote in :

Dave S wrote:
Larry Dighera wrote:


Perhaps. I doubt the coroner will find the passenger to have expired
as a result of the Mounties arresting the passenger. It would be
interesting to know where the darts hit the passenger.
If it was across the chest, I can see how the Taser may have
precipitated a heart attack.

I cant. A taser is not a defibrillator, nor a cardioverter. All use
electricity, but in different manners. The energy involved is much
different. The capacitors involved in medical devices such as external
defibrillators are larger than the entire taser device, and the energy
involved is orders of magnitude larger.


Larry.. for further comparison..

http://www.taser.org/specifications.html has some data.
Most specifically.. each individual energy pulse is 1.76 Joules.

When I use a defibrillator on a patient in cardiac arrest, the
recommended energy ranges are 200-360 joules per discharge. They have to
JUST to be able to get 5-10 joules of energy to the heart itself (which
is the range of energy that INTERNAL defibrillators run at - devices
that have DIRECT electrical contact with the heart. Notice again, the
taser only puts out less than 2 joules.

A police car strobe light runs about 10 joules per flash.

Aircraft strobes run in the 30 joule range

Does this put things in a perspective?

Yes. It does. Thank you for the information. I meant to research
that.

I'm not sure how comparing a defibrillator to a Taser justifys using
Tasers on suspects, but I personally find such use dehumanizing and
hazardous.

But you do not find pepper spray, wrestling him to the ground, or other
methods dehumanizing or hazardous?

Perhaps you are putting to fine a point on it, Larry. No matter how you
do it, forcibly rendering someone harmless and throwing him to the
ground is going to be dehumanizing and hazardous.

The pepper spray would definitely have forced evacuation of the whole
terminal until it was cleared, but it probably would not have stopped
the person from throwing his tantrum. Allowing him to continue the
tantrum would only have endangered others and their property, and he
probably would have died anyway. He died of emotional upset, not of a
Taser

Of course, there is always soma-gas. It was basically harmless, and no
one thought that the Brave New World was dehumanizing or hazardous, did
they?
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor