Mounties Electrocute Airline Passenger

On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:36:07 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in
:

Larry Dighera wrote:


Mace? Wrestle him to the floor? A net? Something with less lethal
potential than 100,000 volts?

50,000 Volts, 18 Watts and 133 MilliAmps


Where did you get that information?

Given W=EI if the voltage is 50KV and the current is 0.133 amps that
works out to:

50,000 volts * 0.133 amps = 6,650 Watts

(One milliamperes = 0.001 amperes; did you mean microamperes?)

The second paragraph of the citation below seems to disagree with your
numbers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroshock_gun
Principles of operation

Electroshock weapon technology uses a temporary
high-voltage low-current electrical discharge to override the
body's muscle-triggering mechanisms. The recipient feels great
pain, and can be momentarily paralyzed while an electric current
is being applied. It is reported that applying electroshock
devices to more sensitive parts of the body is more
painful.[citation needed] The relatively low electric current must
be pushed by high voltage to overcome the electrical resistance of
the human body. The resulting 'shock' is caused by muscles
twitching uncontrollably, appearing as muscle spasms. However,
because the amount of current is relatively low, there is
considered to be a 'margin' of safety by a number of medical
experts. Experts generally agree that this margin is highly
dependent on the overall health of the person subjected to the
shock. Usually, the higher the voltage, the more effective it is.
It may take several seconds to subdue a subject with 100 kV, but
only about a second with 1 MV (1,000 kV).[verification needed]

In current electroshock weapon models, the current is sometimes
relatively low (2.1 mA to 3.6 mA) which is based in part on the
electrical supply, (but for example M-26 Taser models produce a
peak current of 18 amperes in pulses that last for around 10
microseconds [1] and use eight AA batteries). Electrical current
above 10 mA at 60Hz AC is considered to be potentially lethal to
humans, though not all electroshock weapons pulse the current at
60 Hz.

The internal circuits of most electroshock weapons are fairly
simple, either based on an oscillator, resonant circuit and
step-up transformer or diode-capacitor voltage multipliers to
achieve the continuous, direct or alternating high-voltage
discharge may be powered by one or more 9 V battery depending on
manufacturer, and model. The output voltages without external
"load" (which would be the target's body) are claimed to be in the
range of 50 kV up to 1000 kV, with the most common being in the
200 to 300 kV range. However since air has a dielectric breakdown
(Emax) of 3000 kV/m, it is clear that the spacing of the
electrodes will not permit the upper range of claimed voltages
(900 kV representing a minimum electrode spacing of about 30 cm).
The output current upon contact with the target will depend on
various factors such as target's resistance, skin type, moisture,
bodily salinity, clothing, the electroshock weapon's internal
circuitry and battery conditions.[2][3]

According to the many sources, a shock of half a second duration
will cause intense pain and muscle contractions startling most
people greatly. Two to three seconds will often cause the subject
to become dazed and drop to the ground, and over three seconds
will usually completely disorient and drop an attacker for at
least several seconds and possibly for up to fifteen
minutes.[citation needed] TASER International warns law
enforcement agencies that “prolonged or continuous exposure(s) to
the TASER device’s electrical charge” may lead to medical risks
such as cumulative exhaustion and breathing impairment.[4] Because
there is no automatic stop on a taser gun, many officers have used
it repeatedly or for a prolonged period of time, thus potentially
contributing to suspects’ injuries or death.[5][6]


Taser

The M-26 TASER, the United States military version of a commercial
TASER.The name Taser is an acronym for "Thomas A. Swift's Electric
Rifle"[10]. Arizona inventor Jack Cover designed it in 1969;
naming it for the science fiction teenage inventor and adventurer
character Tom Swift.

Modern taser-type weapons fire small dart-like electrodes with
attached metal wires that connect to the gun, propelled by small
gas charges similar to some air rifle propellants. The maximum
range is up to 10 meters (30 feet). Earlier models of Taser needed
the dart-like electrodes to embed in the skin and superficial
muscle tissues layers; newer versions of the projectiles use a
shaped pulse/arc of electricity which disrupt nerve and muscle
function without needing the metal prongs on the projectile to
penetrate the skin. Early models had difficulty in penetrating
thick clothing, but the 'pulse' models are designed to bring down
a subject wearing up to a Level III body armor vest.[citation
needed]

Tasers are currently in use by a number of police forces worldwide
to try to reduce firearms-related deaths. The Phoenix Police
Department reported that officer shootings had dropped as a result
from the use of TASER technology as an alternative to deadly
force[citation needed]. Uses of a TASER device in this department
increased from 71 in the year 2002 to 164 in the year 2003.
Additionally, the number of officer-involved shootings decreased
by 7 during this time period. In Houston, however, police
shootings did not decline after the deployment of thousands of
TASERs.[11]

Although TASERs were originally proposed as alternatives to lethal
force, they have entered routine use as a method to gain
compliance at times when the use of firearms would not be
considered. For example, in the case of Fouad Kaady, a severely
burned man in shock and covered in blood sitting Indian style in
the road was ordered to lie down on his stomach to be handcuffed,
and within a few seconds was TASERed twice for failing to
comply.[12][13] An inquiry found that officers acted appropriately
in this case. In another well-publicized case, Andrew Meyer was
tasered while allegedly resisting arrest in an incident which
began with him exceeding his allotted time while asking a question
of John Kerry at a political rally.[14]

While they are not technically considered lethal, some authorities
and non-governmental organizations question both the degree of
safety presented by the weapon and the ethical implications of
using a weapon that some, such as Amnesty International, allege is
inhumane. As a result, a number of civil liberties groups would
like to see tasers banned.[citation needed] Amnesty International
has documented over 245 deaths that occurred after the use of
tasers.[15] The fact that a death occurred following use of a
taser does not necessarily indicate the taser was the cause of
death or even a contributing factor because correlation does not
imply causation, and as many of the deaths occurred in people with
serious medical conditions and/or severe drug intoxication, often
to the point of excited delirium. Tasers are often used as an
alternative to attacking the suspect with a baton or shooting him
with firearms both of which have a much higher chance of serious
injury and death than the taser, even using the highest estimates
of possible taser-related deaths. The term "less-lethal" is being
used more frequently when referring to weapons such as tasers
because many experts feel that no device meant to subdue a person
can be completely safe. The less-lethal category also includes
devices such as pepper spray, tear gas, and batons.There has been
one case report in the medical literature of a person suffering
spinal fractures after being shocked by a taser.[16] The US
National Institute of Justice has begun a two-year study into
taser-related deaths in custody.[17]

Tasers were introduced as a less-lethal weapon so that they could
be used by police to subdue fleeing, belligerent or potentially
dangerous criminal suspects, often when a lethal weapon would have
otherwise been used. However, tasers have not proved to
unequivocally reduce gun usage. For example, the Houston Police
Department has “shot, wounded and killed as many people as before
the widespread use of the stun guns” and has used tasers in
situations that would not warrant lethal or violent force, such as
verbal aggression.[11]

On Tuesday, 5 July, 2005 Michael Todd, Chief Constable of
Manchester, England, let himself be shot in the back with a taser,
to demonstrate his confidence that tasers can be used safely. This
was videoed, and the video was released to the BBC on 17 May 2007.
He was wearing a shirt and no jacket. When tased he fell forward
on his chest on the ground, and (he said afterwards) the shock
made him helpless; but soon after he recovered
completely.[18][19][20]

Although some police volunteers have shown tasers to function
appropriately on a healthy, calm individual, the real-life target
of a taser is, if not mentally or physically unsound, in a state
of high stress. According to the UK’s Defence Scientific Advisory
Council’s subcommittee on the Medical Implications of Less-lethal
Weapons (DoMILL), “The possibility that other factors such as
illicit drug intoxication, alcohol abuse, pre-existing heart
disease and cardioactive therapeutic drugs may modify the
threshold for generation of cardiac arrhythmias cannot be
excluded.” Additionally, taser experiments “do not take into
account real life use of tasers by law enforcement agencies, such
as repeated or prolonged shocks and the use of restraints”.[5]

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:36:07 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in
:

Larry Dighera wrote:


Mace? Wrestle him to the floor? A net? Something with less lethal
potential than 100,000 volts?

50,000 Volts, 18 Watts and 133 MilliAmps


Where did you get that information?


From their website.

http://www.taser.org/m18l.html

second paragraph.

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:13:37 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote in
:

Larry Dighera wrote:
Is airline passenger abuse on the rise as a result of passenger
reaction to airline delays?


http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-col...r.html?ref=rss

What passenger abuse? The man was out of control until the cops zapped him.

It sounds like the passenger was maniacal well after that. Have you
any idea how long a Taser is capable of sustained high-voltage output?

Yes

Is it controllable by the LEO?

In a fashion. Their only control with regards to this is to pull the
trigger. On or off.

Until a dart is removed, I would think the LEO could continue to apply
high-voltage until the battery was
exhausted.

The ones in use in my locale (the 5 county area surrounding Houston,
Texas, by numerous city and county LEO's) have a 5 second burst per
trigger pull. They also have recording capability from a data standpoint.

I asked one officer I work with on a regular basis if he'd ever deployed
his for cause (not training or test) and he answered twice. Once for one
shock, and once for 7 shocks. The suspect in the 7 shock event didn't
understand that it was unnacceptable to keep lashing, lunging, kicking
or biting the police officers during apprehension, nor was it acceptable
to kick out the rear window of the transporting patrol car despite
repeated warnings. This event was deemed justified on review.






He must have had a weak heart... maybe helped along by some chemical recreational
aids.

Perhaps. I doubt the coroner will find the passenger to have expired
as a result of the Mounties arresting the passenger. It would be
interesting to know where the darts hit the passenger.

If it was across the chest, I can see how the Taser may have
precipitated a heart attack.

I cant. A taser is not a defibrillator, nor a cardioverter. All use
electricity, but in different manners. The energy involved is much
different. The capacitors involved in medical devices such as external
defibrillators are larger than the entire taser device, and the energy
involved is orders of magnitude larger.

The energy flows from dart to dart and the path of least resistance is
across the skin and skeletal muscles. Lungs, bone and other tissues have
increased resistance, which is why so much more energy is used for
medical purposes such as defibrillation. You AIM a taser at the center
of mass.. so by definition you are aiming at the chest and back.



You consider controlling a berserk person abuse? What should the cops have
tried first? Time out?

Mace? Wrestle him to the floor? A net? Something with less lethal
potential than 100,000 volts?

Maybe they should try asking the suspect nicely and offer him a hug.

Dave S wrote:
Larry Dighera wrote:


Perhaps. I doubt the coroner will find the passenger to have expired
as a result of the Mounties arresting the passenger. It would be
interesting to know where the darts hit the passenger.
If it was across the chest, I can see how the Taser may have
precipitated a heart attack.

I cant. A taser is not a defibrillator, nor a cardioverter. All use
electricity, but in different manners. The energy involved is much
different. The capacitors involved in medical devices such as external
defibrillators are larger than the entire taser device, and the energy
involved is orders of magnitude larger.


Larry.. for further comparison..

http://www.taser.org/specifications.html has some data.
Most specifically.. each individual energy pulse is 1.76 Joules.

When I use a defibrillator on a patient in cardiac arrest, the
recommended energy ranges are 200-360 joules per discharge. They have to
JUST to be able to get 5-10 joules of energy to the heart itself (which
is the range of energy that INTERNAL defibrillators run at - devices
that have DIRECT electrical contact with the heart. Notice again, the
taser only puts out less than 2 joules.

A police car strobe light runs about 10 joules per flash.

Aircraft strobes run in the 30 joule range

Does this put things in a perspective?

I the taser is so insignificant, why is it so devastating?

The handheld thing are usually applied to the spine.

Ouch.



Dave S wrote:
Dave S wrote:

Larry Dighera wrote:



Perhaps. I doubt the coroner will find the passenger to have expired
as a result of the Mounties arresting the passenger. It would be
interesting to know where the darts hit the passenger. If it was
across the chest, I can see how the Taser may have
precipitated a heart attack.


I cant. A taser is not a defibrillator, nor a cardioverter. All use
electricity, but in different manners. The energy involved is much
different. The capacitors involved in medical devices such as external
defibrillators are larger than the entire taser device, and the energy
involved is orders of magnitude larger.



Larry.. for further comparison..

http://www.taser.org/specifications.html has some data.
Most specifically.. each individual energy pulse is 1.76 Joules.

When I use a defibrillator on a patient in cardiac arrest, the
recommended energy ranges are 200-360 joules per discharge. They have to
JUST to be able to get 5-10 joules of energy to the heart itself (which
is the range of energy that INTERNAL defibrillators run at - devices
that have DIRECT electrical contact with the heart. Notice again, the
taser only puts out less than 2 joules.

A police car strobe light runs about 10 joules per flash.

Aircraft strobes run in the 30 joule range

Does this put things in a perspective?

On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 19:08:36 -0500, Dave S
wrote in :

Dave S wrote:
Larry Dighera wrote:


Perhaps. I doubt the coroner will find the passenger to have expired
as a result of the Mounties arresting the passenger. It would be
interesting to know where the darts hit the passenger.
If it was across the chest, I can see how the Taser may have
precipitated a heart attack.

I cant. A taser is not a defibrillator, nor a cardioverter. All use
electricity, but in different manners. The energy involved is much
different. The capacitors involved in medical devices such as external
defibrillators are larger than the entire taser device, and the energy
involved is orders of magnitude larger.


Larry.. for further comparison..

http://www.taser.org/specifications.html has some data.
Most specifically.. each individual energy pulse is 1.76 Joules.

When I use a defibrillator on a patient in cardiac arrest, the
recommended energy ranges are 200-360 joules per discharge. They have to
JUST to be able to get 5-10 joules of energy to the heart itself (which
is the range of energy that INTERNAL defibrillators run at - devices
that have DIRECT electrical contact with the heart. Notice again, the
taser only puts out less than 2 joules.

A police car strobe light runs about 10 joules per flash.

Aircraft strobes run in the 30 joule range

Does this put things in a perspective?

Yes. It does. Thank you for the information. I meant to research
that.

I'm not sure how comparing a defibrillator to a Taser justifys using
Tasers on suspects, but I personally find such use dehumanizing and
hazardous.

On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 18:58:59 -0500, Dave S
wrote in :

Have you
any idea how long a Taser is capable of sustained high-voltage output?

Yes

Is it controllable by the LEO?

In a fashion. Their only control with regards to this is to pull the
trigger. On or off.

Until a dart is removed, I would think the LEO could continue to apply
high-voltage until the battery was exhausted.

The ones in use in my locale (the 5 county area surrounding Houston,
Texas, by numerous city and county LEO's) have a 5 second burst per
trigger pull. They also have recording capability from a data standpoint.

As you didn't mention any requirement for periodic inspection and
certification of Tasers carried by LEOs, I presume that isn't
occurring. Is it not possible that Tasers in the field are being
operated beyond their specifications accidentally or deliberately?

Do you know specifically what data are recorded by the Taser?

("Larry Dighera" wrote)
Mace? Wrestle him to the floor? A net? Something with less lethal
potential than 100,000 volts?


This scene in Planet of The Apes (1968) comes to mind: Taylor breaks free
and is running around the Ape compound (he's scaring the little ones!)
Eventually, a net is dropped over him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRG6ahCs_t0
"Take your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!"

NAC (Necessary Aviation Content)
Paper airplane in the courtroom scene


Montblack
http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/ApesShip/Sci-Fi&FantasyModels38/IllustrationPage5-A.jpg
Icarus Spaceship

On 2007-10-17 17:00:29 -0700, "Montblack"
said:

("Larry Dighera" wrote)
Mace? Wrestle him to the floor? A net? Something with less lethal
potential than 100,000 volts?


This scene in Planet of The Apes (1968) comes to mind: Taylor breaks free
and is running around the Ape compound (he's scaring the little ones!)
Eventually, a net is dropped over him.

I think that point of that scene was that the Apes were treating him
like a wild animal. Was that not dehumanizing and hazardous?


--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

("C J Campbell" wrote)
I think that point of that scene was that the Apes were treating him like
a wild animal. Was that not dehumanizing and hazardous?


Yes, dehumanizing, and yes, hazardous.

"Don't Tase Me, Bro!" ....Good - most of the time.

Netting by security apes ....Bad - most of the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRG6ahCs_t0
"Take your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!"


Montblack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDTkTAo_l2g&NR=1
"Don't tase me, bro!"