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#31
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"Pete" wrote in message news:Lydtb.7118 ok...I'll play..
8. Analysis of the radiation aspect, and why shielding could or could not have mattered, and why or why not the Apollo craft could not have been shielded enough to ensure survival. (Simply saying "the technology wasn't good enough" is not enough. Rad levels aloft, time, then-current material science all must be included in this analysis). Before we even go there, we have to answer why there was a moon race in the first place if radiation were an insurmountable obstacle. Both the US and the Soviet Union launched numerous interplanetary and lunar probes long before any manned lunar launchs evertook place. Many of the US probe experiments were run by university researchers, IIRC. These people would be fully cognizant of the interplanetary environment. The Soviets would know based on the data from their activities and would not have participated in the moon race. They launched probes specifically to investigate the lunar radiation environment, including (but not limited to): LUNA 1 ('59) - Carried geiger counter, scintillation counter LUNA 2 {'59) - Carried geiger counter, scintillation counter LUNA 3 ('59) - Carried cosmic ray detector ZOND 3 ('65) - Carried gas-discharge & scintillation detectors LUNA 10 ('66) - Carried gamma ray spectrometer LUNA 11 ('66) - Measured hard particulate radiation near moon LUNA 12 ('66) - Measured hard particulate radiation near moon LUNA 13 ('66) - Measured cosmic ray reflectivity of surface LUNA 14 ('68) - Measured solar charged particles & cosmic radiation ZOND 5 ('68) - Flyby carrying turtles, flies, worms, seeds, bacteria ZOND 6 {'68} - Carried cosmic ray detectors, biological payload ZOND 7 ('69) ZOND 8 ('70) LUNA 16 ('70) - Returned soil samples, carried radiation instruments LUNA 20 ('72) - Returned soil samples LUNA 24 ('76) - Returned soil samples Many more lunar & planetary probes were launched, but I'm only including the ones I found immediately that discuss measuring the radiation environment. In fact, not only was the lunar radiation environment well known in the early 60's , it was known well enough early enough for both sides to have avoided ever having a moon race in the first place. Be rather impossible for Zond 5 to have flown biologicals if the radiation level were too high, eh? By this we can infer one of two possibilities: 1. Either both the Soviets and the Americans were in on a deception (unlikely) 2. The lunar radiation environment was not a significant impediment to a manned lunar landing (likely) The theory that the US would be pull over a hoax on the Soviets on this is falsifiable on this issue. |
#32
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John Beadles wrote:
The trend is that they are willing to disregard or misrepresent the available evidence in favor of the landings, but are totally unable to present ANY evidence supporting their own theories. A moon hoax proponent with a valid argument should be able to show positive proof showing how the hoax was executed. I was curious to see if you were going to have anything original, but no, no luck. In any case, this particular example is directly falsifiable ....snipped... John - You're missing the point. The problem with Michael and all the other crypto-conspiracists is nothing they present is subject to being falsifiable; they don't use the rules of scientific evidence and logic. They are right. Everyone else is wrong. If you try and demonstrate they are wrong by bringing up "falsifiable", they will either ignore your facts and evidence, claim it's not true, or claim you're part of the cover-up. They're not working on a logical level, and nothing you can ever so or do will convince them otherwise. If you want proof, just ask Michael (or any other person of his type) exactly what evidence, if presented, they would accept as proof they were wrong. See what response you get. And even if on the off chance they do provide such a list, and you demonstrate anything on the list to them, they will then recant and find a reason to not accept that, either. Just view it as the Internet equivalent of tilting at windmills. A Reformed Tilter |
#33
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"John Beadles" wrote in message om... "Pete" wrote in message news:Lydtb.7118 ok...I'll play.. 8. Analysis of the radiation aspect, and why shielding could or could not have mattered, and why or why not the Apollo craft could not have been shielded enough to ensure survival. (Simply saying "the technology wasn't good enough" is not enough. Rad levels aloft, time, then-current material science all must be included in this analysis). Before we even go there, we have to answer why there was a moon race in the first place if radiation were an insurmountable obstacle. Both the US and the Soviet Union launched numerous interplanetary and lunar probes long before any manned lunar launchs evertook place. Many of the US probe experiments were run by university researchers, IIRC. These people would be fully cognizant of the interplanetary environment. The Soviets would know based on the data from their activities and would not have participated in the moon race. They launched probes specifically to investigate the lunar radiation environment, including (but not limited to): LUNA 1 ('59) - Carried geiger counter, scintillation counter LUNA 2 {'59) - Carried geiger counter, scintillation counter LUNA 3 ('59) - Carried cosmic ray detector ZOND 3 ('65) - Carried gas-discharge & scintillation detectors LUNA 10 ('66) - Carried gamma ray spectrometer LUNA 11 ('66) - Measured hard particulate radiation near moon LUNA 12 ('66) - Measured hard particulate radiation near moon LUNA 13 ('66) - Measured cosmic ray reflectivity of surface LUNA 14 ('68) - Measured solar charged particles & cosmic radiation ZOND 5 ('68) - Flyby carrying turtles, flies, worms, seeds, bacteria ZOND 6 {'68} - Carried cosmic ray detectors, biological payload ZOND 7 ('69) ZOND 8 ('70) LUNA 16 ('70) - Returned soil samples, carried radiation instruments LUNA 20 ('72) - Returned soil samples LUNA 24 ('76) - Returned soil samples Many more lunar & planetary probes were launched, but I'm only including the ones I found immediately that discuss measuring the radiation environment. In fact, not only was the lunar radiation environment well known in the early 60's , it was known well enough early enough for both sides to have avoided ever having a moon race in the first place. Be rather impossible for Zond 5 to have flown biologicals if the radiation level were too high, eh? By this we can infer one of two possibilities: 1. Either both the Soviets and the Americans were in on a deception (unlikely) 2. The lunar radiation environment was not a significant impediment to a manned lunar landing (likely) The theory that the US would be pull over a hoax on the Soviets on this is falsifiable on this issue. Curiously, you find this argument, that the technology of the time wasn't advanced enough to make the flight, but you never hear the even more obvious counter argument that the audio-visual technology of the time wasn't good enough to fake it, and didn't become so until the last five to eight years. -- Jack |
#35
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"Pete" wrote in message ...
"Michael Petukhov" wrote You asked the question wrong. Of course he has 'evidence'. It should have been asked: "Do you have any *credible* evidence at all that the U.S. did not in fact land men on the moon?"..." Pete No, it should have been asked: "Do you have any *credible for Pete* evidence at all that the U.S. did not in fact land men on the moon?"..." The answer is no nobody can have it. Right? Tell us what kind of hypotetical evidence you would accept as credible enough. Just curiosity. ok...I'll play.. Just a few, in no particular order: 1. Memos outlining (or even hinting at) the coverup. Hinting? nice crediable evidence! I can predict what would happend with Neal if he starts hinting he did not went on the moon. He would be declared as mad person. 2. Unambiguous pictures (and location) of the 'fake moon' soundstage. Anyone can do it. Not a crediable evidence. 3. Timed telemetry data, outlining a non-delay in signal. The scheme with moon radio trasmitter produces aboslutely correct delays. 4. Verified (lie detector?) interviews with 1 member of this coverup. What? 5. Analysis of the 'fake moon rocks', showing they are not of lunar origin. What if it is of lunar origin meteorites. 6. Location of (pictures would help) the mythical alternate Saturn V launch site you mention. Nobody suggested including me an alternate Saturn V launch site. All can be launched in official one in official times. 7. Why the fUSSR did not (has not) brought this coverup into the fore. Why it should? In any case is not a credible evidence. 8. Analysis of the radiation aspect, and why shielding could or could not have mattered, and why or why not the Apollo craft could not have been shielded enough to ensure survival. (Simply saying "the technology wasn't good enough" is not enough. Rad levels aloft, time, then-current material science all must be included in this analysis). I agree. That's a good point. Why would not you do that kind of analysis for yourself. It is not so difficult and I can point you to a basic data if you want. The funny side is that NASA claimed that such protection was not necessary. 9. Finally, a detailed analysis of why it *could not* have been done with the technology of the era. Please include all aspects of the flight. More detail is better. Do you really hope get all this from me? No. you have to find out all this stuff on your own. Things along that line. Easy stuff. You'll have at least a couple of those right away, correct? I have many things on that matters (two big files already) but I do not want to repeat it over and over again. All that was in my view serious enough was discussed in this NG. So you can easily find out with Google search engine if you want. I would suggest also to look very carefully at NASA official moon movies. Particualrly ones with rover driving. in many there are dust clouds clearly indicating presence of an atmosphere. sometimes it is also very visible when astranauts do very energetic moves. although it does not mean that atmosphere was always present. Michael Pete |
#36
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(George William Herbert) wrote in message ...
Michael Petukhov wrote: [...] The funny side that even time delays would be just fine not to speak that the signal does come from the moon. The later is for radio enthusiasts all over the world. Hm... tell me the tue. this is what you wanted to ambush me on? Right? Little naive boy... So, would you mind explaining from the start for those of us who missed your earlier postings, what makes you think that this was faked at all? This is very big field full of false claims and contra claims. I cannot give you a complete list but in my view there are lots of very strange things in NASA official pictures and particualrly in movies (wrong shadows, untouched dust directly under LM engine, clouds of dust from under rover wheels etc.), strange elements of LM design like inward opening hatch, space and van-allen belts radiation which was largerly ignored etc. On radiation you can start with: http://guthvenus.tripod.com/space-radiation.htm it has references on valid nasa documents and measuremrnts. As for the pictures there are many sites on internet. Try "moon hoax" you would have tons of that with pictures refernces etc. Both pro and contra, false and true. So be careful you can be mislead. Michael -george william herbert |
#37
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(John Beadles) wrote in message . com...
"Pete" wrote in message news:Lydtb.7118 ok...I'll play.. 8. Analysis of the radiation aspect, and why shielding could or could not have mattered, and why or why not the Apollo craft could not have been shielded enough to ensure survival. (Simply saying "the technology wasn't good enough" is not enough. Rad levels aloft, time, then-current material science all must be included in this analysis). Before we even go there, we have to answer why there was a moon race in the first place if radiation were an insurmountable obstacle. Both the US and the Soviet Union launched numerous interplanetary and lunar probes long before any manned lunar launchs evertook place. Many of the US probe experiments were run by university researchers, IIRC. These people would be fully cognizant of the interplanetary environment. I do not think there were really complete data on that matters by 61 when US president declared moon landing goals. By 69 there were certainly lots of valid data particularly on van-allen belts. But by that time it seems for so many in US it was already too late to say "sorry it was my mistake". The Soviets would know based on the data from their activities and would not have participated in the moon race. They launched probes specifically to investigate the lunar radiation environment, including (but not limited to): LUNA 1 ('59) - Carried geiger counter, scintillation counter LUNA 2 {'59) - Carried geiger counter, scintillation counter LUNA 3 ('59) - Carried cosmic ray detector ZOND 3 ('65) - Carried gas-discharge & scintillation detectors LUNA 10 ('66) - Carried gamma ray spectrometer LUNA 11 ('66) - Measured hard particulate radiation near moon LUNA 12 ('66) - Measured hard particulate radiation near moon LUNA 13 ('66) - Measured cosmic ray reflectivity of surface LUNA 14 ('68) - Measured solar charged particles & cosmic radiation ZOND 5 ('68) - Flyby carrying turtles, flies, worms, seeds, bacteria ZOND 6 {'68} - Carried cosmic ray detectors, biological payload ZOND 7 ('69) ZOND 8 ('70) LUNA 16 ('70) - Returned soil samples, carried radiation instruments LUNA 20 ('72) - Returned soil samples LUNA 24 ('76) - Returned soil samples Many more lunar & planetary probes were launched, but I'm only including the ones I found immediately that discuss measuring the radiation environment. In fact, not only was the lunar radiation environment well known in the early 60's , it was known well enough early enough for both sides to have avoided ever having a moon race in the first place. Be rather impossible for Zond 5 to have flown biologicals if the radiation level were too high, eh? As for moon race with USSR. There was very similar manned moon program in USSR officially opened until 72-73 I think. however it was never a priority in USSR. Mainly it was Korolev personal business. It was receiving some very limited funding only when he was alive in 64-66. Automatic and H1 booster is a different story. it was priority. korolev did plan to use H1 for the manned moon flight, but officially H1 was intented to launch heavy military station in LEO. However I have to admit designs (unfinished thought) for CM/LM in USSR were pretty ideologically similar to that in US. It is puzzle to me why they could believe that **** can be used to fly to moon and return. The guys here involved in it still hesitate to tell us how and why in full details. By this we can infer one of two possibilities: 1. Either both the Soviets and the Americans were in on a deception (unlikely) Impossible. 2. The lunar radiation environment was not a significant impediment to a manned lunar landing (likely) This is what NASA official position. However today there are many crediable data including from NASA itself that this is not the case. See for instance: http://guthvenus.tripod.com/space-radiation.htm and referencies in it. The theory that the US would be pull over a hoax on the Soviets on this is falsifiable on this issue. In my taste this theory is better grounded than theory that NASA landed on the moon. However practice will show who was right and wrong. Michael |
#38
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"J.T. McDaniel" wrote in message ink.net...
"John Beadles" wrote in message om... "Pete" wrote in message news:Lydtb.7118 ok...I'll play.. 8. Analysis of the radiation aspect, and why shielding could or could not have mattered, and why or why not the Apollo craft could not have been shielded enough to ensure survival. (Simply saying "the technology wasn't good enough" is not enough. Rad levels aloft, time, then-current material science all must be included in this analysis). Before we even go there, we have to answer why there was a moon race in the first place if radiation were an insurmountable obstacle. Both the US and the Soviet Union launched numerous interplanetary and lunar probes long before any manned lunar launchs evertook place. Many of the US probe experiments were run by university researchers, IIRC. These people would be fully cognizant of the interplanetary environment. The Soviets would know based on the data from their activities and would not have participated in the moon race. They launched probes specifically to investigate the lunar radiation environment, including (but not limited to): LUNA 1 ('59) - Carried geiger counter, scintillation counter LUNA 2 {'59) - Carried geiger counter, scintillation counter LUNA 3 ('59) - Carried cosmic ray detector ZOND 3 ('65) - Carried gas-discharge & scintillation detectors LUNA 10 ('66) - Carried gamma ray spectrometer LUNA 11 ('66) - Measured hard particulate radiation near moon LUNA 12 ('66) - Measured hard particulate radiation near moon LUNA 13 ('66) - Measured cosmic ray reflectivity of surface LUNA 14 ('68) - Measured solar charged particles & cosmic radiation ZOND 5 ('68) - Flyby carrying turtles, flies, worms, seeds, bacteria ZOND 6 {'68} - Carried cosmic ray detectors, biological payload ZOND 7 ('69) ZOND 8 ('70) LUNA 16 ('70) - Returned soil samples, carried radiation instruments LUNA 20 ('72) - Returned soil samples LUNA 24 ('76) - Returned soil samples Many more lunar & planetary probes were launched, but I'm only including the ones I found immediately that discuss measuring the radiation environment. In fact, not only was the lunar radiation environment well known in the early 60's , it was known well enough early enough for both sides to have avoided ever having a moon race in the first place. Be rather impossible for Zond 5 to have flown biologicals if the radiation level were too high, eh? By this we can infer one of two possibilities: 1. Either both the Soviets and the Americans were in on a deception (unlikely) 2. The lunar radiation environment was not a significant impediment to a manned lunar landing (likely) The theory that the US would be pull over a hoax on the Soviets on this is falsifiable on this issue. Curiously, you find this argument, that the technology of the time wasn't advanced enough to make the flight, but you never hear the even more obvious counter argument that the audio-visual technology of the time wasn't good enough to fake it, and didn't become so until the last five to eight years. Exactly! That's why it is so easy to find anomalies in almost all NASA moon video and photo materials. Michael |
#39
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"Michael Petukhov" wrote in message m... (John Beadles) wrote in message . com... "Pete" wrote in message news:Lydtb.7118 ok...I'll play.. As for moon race with USSR. There was very similar manned moon program in USSR officially opened until 72-73 I think. however it was never a priority in USSR. Mainly it was Korolev personal business. It was receiving some very limited funding only when he was alive in 64-66. Automatic and H1 booster is a different story. it was priority. korolev did plan to use H1 for the manned moon flight, but officially H1 was intented to launch heavy military station in LEO. Why would he do so if radiation made such a flight impossible ? Why would the Soviet Academy of Sciences back his mission ? Why did the efforts continue for several years after the death of Korolev ? However I have to admit designs (unfinished thought) for CM/LM in USSR were pretty ideologically similar to that in US. It is puzzle to me why they could believe that **** can be used to fly to moon and return. The guys here involved in it still hesitate to tell us how and why in full details. Well Korolev is dead which would make his testifying rather difficult but plenty but Vasili Mishin, gave a long interview to Spaceflight vol.32p.104-106 (1990) and Alexander Yasinsky wrote an article entitled "The N-1 Rocket Programme." There's also a nice article in Pravda available on line in English and Russian at http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/363/10188_moon.html Keith |
#40
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"Michael Petukhov" wrote in message om... "Pete" wrote in message ... "Michael Petukhov" wrote Hinting? nice crediable evidence! I can predict what would happend with Neal if he starts hinting he did not went on the moon. He would be declared as mad person. Not really, he could do so from anywhere on the planet and make a fortune selling his story. Keith |
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