Has there ever been an off-center gun?

On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 11:01:20 -0800, Hobo wrote:

Has there ever been an aircraft with a gun permanently aligned
off-center? I don't mean swivel mounted, but permanently fixed at a
point other than straight ahead.

During WW2, many German night fighters were fitted with a gun firing
upwards, to attack bombers.

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: , but first subtract 275 and reverse
the last two letters).

During WW2, many German night fighters were fitted with a gun firing upwards,
to attack bombers.

Actually: 1. It could be one or *multiple* guns
2. They were at an oblique angle
3. It came about when some genius in the
Luftwaffe realized that RAF
bombers had *no* belly defenses;
[GEE! IF Churchill had asked NICELY; we COULD
have sold
him some B-17/24 type BALL
TURRETS OR THE PLANS
FOR SAME! ]

4. the Germans called then
"Schrage" (sic, needs unlauts!)
Musik" or "Jazz Music" in
German!

4. the Germans called then
"Schrage" (sic, needs unlauts!)
Musik" or "Jazz Music" in

German!

Umlauts-R-Us

ü Alt 129
ä 132
ß 225
ö 148
Ä 142
Ö 153
Ü 154

nt (Krztalizer) wrote:


4. the Germans called then
"Schrage" (sic, needs unlauts!)
Musik" or "Jazz Music" in

German!

Umlauts-R-Us

ü Alt 129
ä 132
ß 225
ö 148
Ä 142
Ö 153
Ü 154


Thanks Gordon Ü
--

-Gord.

"DBurch7672" wrote in message
...
During WW2, many German night fighters were fitted with a gun firing
upwards,
to attack bombers.

Actually: 1. It could be one or *multiple* guns
2. They were at an oblique angle
3. It came about when some genius in
the
Luftwaffe realized that RAF
bombers had *no* belly defenses;

Not strictly accurate , some Lancasters had ventral guns, the
problem was that the space was needed for the H2S radar
installation



[GEE! IF Churchill had asked NICELY; we
COULD
have sold
him some B-17/24 type BALL
TURRETS OR THE PLANS
FOR SAME! ]


Given that the RAF had a number of B-17's complete
with ball turrets I rather think the idea was not completely
unknown.

Keith

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
Given that the RAF had a number of B-17's complete
with ball turrets I rather think the idea was not completely
unknown.

Would it really have helped anyway? AIUI ventral ball turrets were very
uncomfortable and in day bombers, gunners moved to them only when fighters
were detected. Besides ventral gunner is still in enormous disadvantage
against a night fighter, he doesn't have a radar and night fighter can see
the bomber easier against the sky.

"Yama" wrote in message ...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
Given that the RAF had a number of B-17's complete
with ball turrets I rather think the idea was not completely
unknown.

Would it really have helped anyway? AIUI ventral ball turrets were very
uncomfortable and in day bombers, gunners moved to them only when fighters
were detected. Besides ventral gunner is still in enormous disadvantage
against a night fighter, he doesn't have a radar and night fighter can see
the bomber easier against the sky.

Quite so. The idea of upward-firing guns for use against bombers
originated in WW1 (mainly to attack airships) and there were British
experiments with upward-firing cannon interwar. Although the
difficulty in defending this area was probably a factor in the German
use of Schräge Musik, I think that more important issues we

1. The bombers were generally much easier to spot from below.

2. The fighters were harder to spot from above.

3. The fighters had a nice, big, steady target to aim at in the
bomber's planform, instead of aiming at a much smaller end-on target
while being bounced around in the slipstream.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

"Yama" wrote in message
...

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
Given that the RAF had a number of B-17's complete
with ball turrets I rather think the idea was not completely
unknown.

Would it really have helped anyway? AIUI ventral ball turrets were very
uncomfortable and in day bombers, gunners moved to them only when fighters
were detected. Besides ventral gunner is still in enormous disadvantage
against a night fighter, he doesn't have a radar and night fighter can see
the bomber easier against the sky.



Probably not which is why a replacement wasnt pursued.

Keith

In article ,
"Yama" writes:

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
Given that the RAF had a number of B-17's complete
with ball turrets I rather think the idea was not completely
unknown.

Would it really have helped anyway? AIUI ventral ball turrets were very
uncomfortable and in day bombers, gunners moved to them only when fighters
were detected. Besides ventral gunner is still in enormous disadvantage
against a night fighter, he doesn't have a radar and night fighter can see
the bomber easier against the sky.

Considering that climbing into, or out of, a ball turret wasn't a
trivial task, and that doing so at 25,000' would require handling
latches & controls that have cold-soaked at -40 (F or C, it doesn't
matter, much) for several hours, not to mention that you'd have to be
juggling Oxygen, connunication, and suit heater power leads, (Oh,
yeah, and you can't climb into the turret with it in the trail
position, you've got to hand crank it so that the guns are pretty much
straight down, then climb in), I'd rather doubt it.
Oh, yeah, the cold temperatures would freeze up the traverse &
elevation gear if it weren't energized & exercized.

You weren't supposed to be in the turret for takeoff or landing, but
the gunner would enter the turret sometime before passing through
10,000' on the climbout.

Now, those "dustbin" things that the Germans & Japanese were so fond
of - those strike me as a bit, well, optimistic.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

Why yes, the AC-47, AC-119, and the AC-130A/E/H/U, to name a few.
--
Les
F-4C(WW),D,E,G(WW)/AC-130A/MC-130E EWO (ret)