spins from coordinated flight

For my conclusion I am fixed in the stall + yaw = spin (where I was to start
with).

I appreciate the references to the Transport Canada material as the tendency
for the airplane to
"go over the top" when snapping over from a climbing turn was a very needed
reminder and
I intend to experiment with it aggressively next year with the appropriate
equipment and circumstances.

At Mr. Henriques suggestion I solicited an explaination from Rich Stowell:

He is the evangelist for the P-A-R-E recovery acronymn.

Power (to idle)
Ailerons (to neutral)
Rudder (against the spin)
Elevator (briskly forward to break the stall).

I must say he drafted a very thoughtful response to me in a direct email.

The only conclusion I can offer to this essay is to point to his web site,
and his book(s):

http://www.richstowell.com/

He articulately explained that the inclinometer is not a precise indication
of coordinated flight and that
some form of yaw is a necessary ingredient to the spin.

With this I'll sign off, thanks for the responses.

Todd Deckard

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Todd W. Deckard wrote:
I have a limited exposure to spins (I've demonstrated spins or
received spin instruction in 5 different airplanes on
six different occasions). I have a commercial certificate (although
you wouldn't think so from my demonstration
of a chandelle). Maybe I did have to demonstrate a power on stall
while in a climbing 20 degree bank, once.
As I recall, we survived it.

I return to the original question: if the ball is in the middle will
it spin?

Becuase I believe snowmobile suits are for snowmobiling and not for
flying I won't have a chance to explore it
with an aerobatic instructor and an appropriate (but drafty) airplane
for a few months -- so I thought I would
put the question in a bottle and throw it in the ocean.

Regards
Todd



"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
news:f2aea120-c3c7-497c-bf68-

...
On Dec 27, 1:42 pm, "Todd W. Deckard"
wrote:
Can you depart and spin from coordinated flight? Specifically a
coordinated
climbing turn?
And courting disaster doing a chandelle? If you're going to do a
commercial ticket you should be familair with spins intimately. An
incipient spin shouldn't even make you break a sweat.


The answer to the ball question is no. It won't spin. A ball centered
airplane in a climbing turn is compensated by rudder and is considered
coordinated (in the classic sense).

If you introduce a climbing turn stall with the ball centered, you
might get a temporary wing drop at the break but unless you introduce
a yaw rate as the stall breaks; no yaw rate...no spin!




Hm, yeah. I'l have to explore this abit when I get a chance. I was fond
of allowing the aiplane to snap over the top and allowing it to enter a
spin in thei scenario to demonstrate to students how easy it was to
enter a spin from a departure stall. Having said that, it always
required unco-ordinated flight, no matter how slight.
Lesson was to keep your eye on the airplane and not sit there FDH.

Bertie





This is normal and many instructors (including myself BTW) use the
climbing turn power on stall as an intro to spin entry as a
demonstration (after careful verbal preparation with the student).

What screws everybody up when dealing with whether the airplane will
spin out of this cfg are the variables that are taking place as the
airspeed dissipates just before the stall break.
I personally don't like relying on the ball as the prime reference for
yaw cancellation when entering this regime just before the stall.
Between the slipstream forces and engine torque, the ball can be used as
a general indicator for correction but is seldom dead on as an indicator
that all yaw has been canceled out. The rub is that ther's a chance of
discrepency between a centered ball and a true canceling of all yaw from
the vertical axis of the airplane.

Like most aerobatic instructors, I like visual cues in these situations
and teach them constantly even to primary students. The wingtip is a
great visual cue as you approach stall. If you stabilize the low wingtip
tip visually against the ground then watch the left tip carefully, when
the yaw has been compensated for by the correct amount of opposing
rudder, that low tip will remain stable. If more rudder is needed, the
tip will appear to move back on you. Stabilize that low wingtip and the
stall break will be center nose down with little wing drop and little
tendency to spin (no yaw...no spin).
It's yaw if present, coupled with the other variables present in an
uncoordinated cfg as the stall breaks that can cause that severe wing
drop. This coupled with SUSTAINED UNCORRECTED YAW is what will produce a
pro spin scenario.
What confuses people the most about the stall break explanation as
relates to wing drop is that even with yaw compensated for, there is
still an AOA difference between the wings and possible interference with
the high wing at the stall break. This is what causes that over the top
scenario so familiar to everyone.
There is as well the possibility of a low wing breaking stall under
certain conditions of control misuse as the stall is breaking, but over
the top is usually what happens.


--
Dudley Henriques

"Todd W. Deckard" wrote in
:

I have a limited exposure to spins (I've demonstrated spins or
received spin instruction in 5 different airplanes on
six different occasions). I have a commercial certificate (although
you wouldn't think so from my demonstration
of a chandelle). Maybe I did have to demonstrate a power on stall
while in a climbing 20 degree bank, once.
As I recall, we survived it.

I return to the original question: if the ball is in the middle will
it spin?

Well, I don't think it will IF it's perfectly co-ordinated, which, if
you;re letting the airplane do it's own thing with only the same amount fo
rudder you were carrying up to the stall, it probably won't be.
Looking at the ball isn't going to get you very far at that stage anyway.

You have to fly the airplane through it.
I do agree that it's more satisfying to undertand the machanics of what's
going on completely, but havng done departure stalls in a variety of
airplanes, I've found them to behave in different ways in this situation.
Mostly, though, if you just let the airplane do it's thing (i.e, become a
passenger) it will roll over the top and enter a spin.

Bertie

Recently, Bertie the Bunyip posted:

BTW, stalls in a climbing turn are pretty much standard standard stuff
even for Private pilots.

Standard, and _required_ for the practical. I had to do both climbing and
descending turning stalls for my checkride. Possibly because I chose to do
my checkride in the middle of winter with an 18 kt. breeze and the
examiner didn't want to die... ;-)

Neil

I reviewed the current copy of the Private Pilot PTS and it references
"maintain heading +/- 10 degrees in straight ahead flight, *or* not to
exceed 20 degrees ... in turning flight"
It would appear that the power on stalls may be demonstrated from straight
ahead *or* climbing turns.
They are not manditory, at least in the US at the private pilot level.

Todd


"Neil Gould" wrote in message
...
Standard, and _required_ for the practical. I had to do both climbing and
descending turning stalls for my checkride. Possibly because I chose to do
my checkride in the middle of winter with an 18 kt. breeze and the
examiner didn't want to die... ;-)

Neil

That is to say "stall reocover while turning and climbing is not mandatory"

"Todd W. Deckard" wrote in message
...
They are not manditory, at least in the US at the private pilot level.

Recently, Todd W. Deckard posted:

That is to say "stall reocover while turning and climbing is not
mandatory"

Any item in the PTS is "required", and can be part of the test. Perhaps
you should re-read item #5 under both power-on and power-off stalls so as
not to be surprised during your check ride.

Neil

On Dec 27, 5:42*am, "Todd W. Deckard" wrote:
Can you depart and spin from coordinated flight? *Specifically a coordinated
climbing turn?

You have to have yawing motion. However, its very common for students
to not be able to maintain coordination during a climbing stall to the
right; which is why its a common way to introduce unexpected spins (I
don't do that though).

-Robert, CFII

Todd W. Deckard wrote:
Can you depart and spin from coordinated flight? Specifically a coordinated
climbing turn?

During training and several BFR's I have done stalling turns with a CFI
present. I have never spun.

Your Mileage May Vary.