Speed of design of airplanes.

With all the programming jobs going to India and Russia, the
defense jobs may be the only ones left for US programmers.
Or have they figured out how to offshore them also?

I think we bring the Russian and Indian DoD programmers here!!!

"Charles Gray" wrote in message
...
On 29 Dec 2003 02:13:31 GMT, (SteveM8597) wrote:

So lets say we moved to a wartime footing, where the order was "Get
it done, and in our hands ASAP" with most other considerations
secondary-- would we see a dramatic improvemetn, or just a fwe months
shaved off here and there.

It would be produced in 10% of the time with 90% of the quality/reliability.
(And at 25% to 50% of the cost. All that oversight is expensive.)

was "Get
it done, and in our hands ASAP" with most other considerations
secondary-- would we see a dramatic improvemetn, or just a fwe months
shaved off here and there.

It would be produced in 10% of the time with 90% of the quality/reliability.
(And at 25% to 50% of the cost. All that oversight is expensive.)



What is the source of your data. The AF has been trying to calculate those
costs for years to convince Congress to back away a little.

"Smartace11" wrote in message
...


Quite often the blank sheet of paper that a design starts with will
get redrawn thousands of times as technology advances, software
develops, concepts emerge, etc. Raptor is going to water a lot of eyes
when it finally goes operational and the fact that it's taken fifteen
years will soon be overlooked.

I worked on the ATF (soon to become F-22/F-23) engines in 1983!

Therein lies the catch. A lot of parts on the F-22 were obsolete 8 yrars
ago,
like processors. The DoD used to be the largest source for electronics
and the
biggest employer of software developers. Now it is just a drop in the
bucket
and all the latest technology in both hardware and software goes to the
entertainment industry. We couldn't even get software peiople for the B-2
because Hollywpod was hiring them all at ten times teh salary DoD was
paying.

Worse still, much of the F-22 exists in pre-95 Ada.

Ada was always seemed a solution in search of a problem! The USAF tried to
cram Ada into sixty four K of rad hard memory in the Peacekeeper ICBM
guidance system. They finally recognized that Ada had far too much overhead
precluding meeting all the time line functional requirements of a
multi-warhead missile.

WDA

end


"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

"Smartace11" wrote in message
...


Quite often the blank sheet of paper that a design starts with will
get redrawn thousands of times as technology advances, software
develops, concepts emerge, etc. Raptor is going to water a lot of eyes
when it finally goes operational and the fact that it's taken fifteen
years will soon be overlooked.

I worked on the ATF (soon to become F-22/F-23) engines in 1983!

Therein lies the catch. A lot of parts on the F-22 were obsolete 8
yrars
ago,
like processors. The DoD used to be the largest source for electronics
and the
biggest employer of software developers. Now it is just a drop in the
bucket
and all the latest technology in both hardware and software goes to the
entertainment industry. We couldn't even get software peiople for the
B-2
because Hollywpod was hiring them all at ten times teh salary DoD was
paying.

Worse still, much of the F-22 exists in pre-95 Ada.

"W. D. Allen Sr." wrote
Ada was always seemed a solution in search of a problem! The USAF tried to
cram Ada into sixty four K of rad hard memory in the Peacekeeper ICBM
guidance system. They finally recognized that Ada had far too much
overhead
precluding meeting all the time line functional requirements of a
multi-warhead missile.

ICBM navigation and control actually requires very little compute. The NS-20
GNC for Minuteman III used a rotating drum memory and performed adds and
multiplies in about 20ms, just in time for the correct location on the drum
to come around and be written.

"Smartace11" wrote in message
...
was "Get
it done, and in our hands ASAP" with most other considerations
secondary-- would we see a dramatic improvemetn, or just a fwe months
shaved off here and there.

It would be produced in 10% of the time with 90% of the
quality/reliability.
(And at 25% to 50% of the cost. All that oversight is expensive.)



What is the source of your data. The AF has been trying to calculate
those
costs for years to convince Congress to back away a little.

A comparison of what has been done at places like the Skunk Works
(SR-71) and comparable places, and what has been done by
companies on their own dime (F-20); vs standard military
contracts.

Nothing the Air Force comes up with will convince Congress
to back away. That would mean no more "fact finding" junkets,
no more high visibility televised committee hearings, no more
getting their asses kissed by the contractors, and no more
being able to steer contracts to their home districts.

Tony

"W. D. Allen Sr." wrote in message
.. .
Ada was always seemed a solution in search of a problem! The USAF tried to
cram Ada into sixty four K of rad hard memory in the Peacekeeper ICBM
guidance system. They finally recognized that Ada had far too much
overhead
precluding meeting all the time line functional requirements of a
multi-warhead missile.

We here at ram have agreed that Ada gained maturity with the '95 release.

Thank goodness the F-35 is a later bird.

WDA

end


"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

"Smartace11" wrote in message
...


Quite often the blank sheet of paper that a design starts with will
get redrawn thousands of times as technology advances, software
develops, concepts emerge, etc. Raptor is going to water a lot of
eyes
when it finally goes operational and the fact that it's taken fifteen
years will soon be overlooked.

I worked on the ATF (soon to become F-22/F-23) engines in 1983!

Therein lies the catch. A lot of parts on the F-22 were obsolete 8
yrars
ago,
like processors. The DoD used to be the largest source for
electronics
and the
biggest employer of software developers. Now it is just a drop in the
bucket
and all the latest technology in both hardware and software goes to
the
entertainment industry. We couldn't even get software peiople for the
B-2
because Hollywpod was hiring them all at ten times teh salary DoD was
paying.

Worse still, much of the F-22 exists in pre-95 Ada.

On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 19:36:38 -0800, "Tarver Engineering"
wrote:

We here at ram have agreed that Ada gained maturity with the '95 release.

Thank goodness the F-35 is a later bird.

Presuming, of course, that Ada could ever be said to have deserved to
live.

Remind me again, why doesn't DOD use a more conventional language like
C++, Java, etc etc etc?

John

In article ,
Penta writes:
On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 19:36:38 -0800, "Tarver Engineering"
wrote:

We here at ram have agreed that Ada gained maturity with the '95 release.

Thank goodness the F-35 is a later bird.

Presuming, of course, that Ada could ever be said to have deserved to
live.

It does its job. If you're good, and you know the fundamentals, you
can do anything in anything.
(I'll have to dig uop the Sieve of Aristophenes I wrote in TECO some
time. That one one me a night's worth of beer.)

Remind me again, why doesn't DOD use a more conventional language like
C++, Java, etc etc etc?

C++: Perfectly adequate, as long as the proper tools are used to make
sure that teh team is actually following the standards, and not
screwing themselves up with improper bounds checking, exception
handling, and other such details. Integrating really large projects
from multiple teams is a Gold-Plated Bitch, especially if anyone is
stupid enough to use the totally upge****t Microsoft crud.

Java: Hopelessly unreliable, and impossible to write deterministic
real-time code in. Java's neat for little toy programs, and it makes
the Professor's job of correcting classwork easier, but it should
never be used in situations where People Could Die or Go to Jail when
it fails.

etc. etc. etc. - make sure you know what you're on about. There's
Good Money to be had being able to read, understand, and write Jovial,
for instance.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster