Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in news:343516c1-8fa1-
:

On Mar 12, 3:39 am, Dan wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

-- IGNORE BELOW -- Depends on the A/C, what were you flying?
In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in
a trainer I'd suggest 2g max.
Ken

-- IGNORE ABOVE ---

Assuming you're not flying an F-4 in a sim, we'll move on to
reality....

This fear is (correctly) pounded into every aspiring/training pilot
--
don't cross control stall on turn to final!

A pilot is trained to do 2g coordinated turns,
even in twink flying, gee I wonder why.
It's a perfectly safe thing to do


Not on base to finals it isn't, you moron.


and IIRC was
a requirement for a pilot's license.
Ken
[snip, I have no comment]


You never do. Just crap.


Bertie

On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:40:09 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in news:343516c1-8fa1-
:

On Mar 12, 3:39 am, Dan wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

-- IGNORE BELOW -- Depends on the A/C, what were you flying?
In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in
a trainer I'd suggest 2g max.
Ken

-- IGNORE ABOVE ---

Assuming you're not flying an F-4 in a sim, we'll move on to
reality....

This fear is (correctly) pounded into every aspiring/training pilot

And although we sometimes hear complaints about the GA safety record,
There are those rare statements that sometimes make me wonder why it's
as good as it is.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 12, 3:39 am, Dan wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

-- IGNORE BELOW -- Depends on the A/C, what were you flying?
In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in
a trainer I'd suggest 2g max.
Ken
-- IGNORE ABOVE ---

Assuming you're not flying an F-4 in a sim, we'll move on to
reality....

This fear is (correctly) pounded into every aspiring/training pilot --
don't cross control stall on turn to final!

A pilot is trained to do 2g coordinated turns,
even in twink flying, gee I wonder why.
It's a perfectly safe thing to do and IIRC was
a requirement for a pilot's license.

Are you just making this stuff up as you go along?

The Practical Test Standard requires the
demonstration of a steep turn at 45 degree
bank and a safe or recommended airspeed.

That's as steep and high g as it gets and it's
not going to be 2g in my plane.

Jim Stewart wrote in
:

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 12, 3:39 am, Dan wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

-- IGNORE BELOW -- Depends on the A/C, what were you flying?
In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in
a trainer I'd suggest 2g max.
Ken
-- IGNORE ABOVE ---

Assuming you're not flying an F-4 in a sim, we'll move on to
reality....

This fear is (correctly) pounded into every aspiring/training pilot
--
don't cross control stall on turn to final!

A pilot is trained to do 2g coordinated turns,
even in twink flying, gee I wonder why.
It's a perfectly safe thing to do and IIRC was
a requirement for a pilot's license.

Are you just making this stuff up as you go along?


I figger he's reading the snot in his hanky like tea leaves.

The Practical Test Standard requires the
demonstration of a steep turn at 45 degree
bank and a safe or recommended airspeed.

That's as steep and high g as it gets and it's
not going to be 2g in my plane.

Oh but how about a paper F-104?


Bertie

On Mar 12, 10:52 am, Jim Stewart wrote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 12, 3:39 am, Dan wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

-- IGNORE BELOW -- Depends on the A/C, what were you flying?
In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in
a trainer I'd suggest 2g max.
Ken
-- IGNORE ABOVE ---

Assuming you're not flying an F-4 in a sim, we'll move on to
reality....

This fear is (correctly) pounded into every aspiring/training pilot --
don't cross control stall on turn to final!

A pilot is trained to do 2g coordinated turns,
even in twink flying, gee I wonder why.
It's a perfectly safe thing to do and IIRC was
a requirement for a pilot's license.

Are you just making this stuff up as you go along?
The Practical Test Standard requires the
demonstration of a steep turn at 45 degree
bank and a safe or recommended airspeed.
That's as steep and high g as it gets and it's
not going to be 2g in my plane.

One instructor I had was really good, and he
certainly wasn't a sissy, he went beyond the
book, but within stated limits of the A/C in that
case a 152. Just twist to 60 degrees for a few
seconds, watch the ball, and twist back to level.

Doing a 45 is a MINIMUM govmonk standard,
as Jim point's out, well some instructors want
better than minimum skills, and as it turned
out the fella was gov qualified to license me,
which he did.
Ken

I think the PTS for the commercial steep turns is 50 degrees +-5 degrees (5
degrees more than the private) so it would be within the PTS tolerances to
be at 55 degrees for the commercial exam. My first instructor taught 60
degrees (not for pattern work obviously). My examiner never said a word
when I used the 60 degree reference for my private.

My instrument flight test required level steep turns partial panel, which I
assume was 45 degrees or more. You can't tell once the turn and bank is
pegged. He suggested lessening the bank every once and a while to see the
needle come off the peg to make sure it wasn't too much bank. I don't think
that was on the PTS but both the instructor and examiner have been around
since WWII. I guess I could have refused if it wasn't on the PTS but that
wouldn't have been too kosher since I was passing anyway and I didn't feel
that it was dangerous on a VFR day.

I don't know why anybody would be worried about 2g's with flaps retracted
other than comfort. The certification limits are way above that for the
airframe. I don't exceed the 2g's, I just go up to it as a limit.


"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
The Practical Test Standard requires the
demonstration of a steep turn at 45 degree
bank and a safe or recommended airspeed.

That's as steep and high g as it gets and it's
not going to be 2g in my plane.

On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:52:38 -0800, Jim Stewart
wrote:

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 12, 3:39 am, Dan wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

-- IGNORE BELOW -- Depends on the A/C, what were you flying?
In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in
a trainer I'd suggest 2g max.
Ken
-- IGNORE ABOVE ---

Assuming you're not flying an F-4 in a sim, we'll move on to
reality....

This fear is (correctly) pounded into every aspiring/training pilot --
don't cross control stall on turn to final!

A pilot is trained to do 2g coordinated turns,
even in twink flying, gee I wonder why.
It's a perfectly safe thing to do and IIRC was

Perfectly safe if not close to the ground and the pilot is proficient
ant not just current.

a requirement for a pilot's license.

Are you just making this stuff up as you go along?

The Practical Test Standard requires the
demonstration of a steep turn at 45 degree
bank and a safe or recommended airspeed.

That's as steep and high g as it gets and it's
not going to be 2g in my plane.

2Gg turns are fun nor are they hazardous when not done close to the
ground. When I took Bo specific training the instructor started
talking me into a steep turn. I asked if it was OK to just roll into
it and go. I He said "OK", so I just rolled left and pulled. Coming up
on the proper heading he said now lets do one the other direction
where by I rolled to the right and pulled. This brought a laughing
comment, "You really like to do these things don't you?" My puzzled
"sure", brought the explanation that most of the Bo pilots would only
grudgingly do 45 degrees let alone 60. You should have heard them
complain when told the instructors would be blocking the yokes so they
couldn't use the ailerons when doing stalls.:-))

I've found few of newer pilots and instructors like 2G at 60 degrees
or the stalling characteristics of the Deb so when I go out to
practice it's only the "old timers" who go along.

When I took the PTS it was 60 degrees and 2Gs. By not going to 60
degrees in steep turns the students miss out on the different banking
tendencies/characteristics. I often think it should be put back to
that. There have been moments where I've been glad they did things
that way back then. One such moment was when a ultra light flying far
later than allowed popped out of the dark directly in front of me when
I was no more than a couple hundred yards (if that) from the end of
the runway. Another was on the VOR approach to MtPleasant where you
fly directly over the runway at 500 feet to the VOR to go missed on
27. When the instructor's voice went up an octave and he said and I
quote..."What that...Oh, ****! Pull UP, Pull UP! I went full power,
stood the Deb on end and did a push over to level off that left things
floating. He never would tell me how close we came but from his
actions I'd say probably no more than a few feet. BTW I did all of
that under the hood. I mentioned to the CFI that I figured had it
been really close he'd have taken over. He said he figured that I knew
the limits of the plane and would react quicker than he could even if
he could see. He was right though, The urgency (I couldeven feel him
tense sitting next to me) told me that this should be a maximum effort
and not just a climb. Made me glad I use 120 for approaches instead
of 80 or 90 too:-))

Neither of these were things covered in primary training or the PTS.
They took a lot of time and practice getting to know the limits of
the Deb.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in news:0f85d04c-1390-4fc4-
:

On Mar 11, 7:23 pm, skym wrote:
While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was
going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to
final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as
possible. I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/
spin by some pilots in this situation, I kept thinking that if I keep
the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and
not auger in. Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct?
(Not that I intend to make it a practice.)

Depends on the A/C, what were you flying?
In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in
a trainer I'd suggest 2g max.


You're a fjukkwit of the first order, kennie.

And for those of you who don't live in lollipop land and don't already
know, a 2 G turn requires 60 degrees of bank and will raise your stall
speed 40%.


Bertie

In article
,
skym wrote:

While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was
going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to
final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as
possible. I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/
spin by some pilots in this situation, I kept thinking that if I keep
the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and
not auger in. Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct?
(Not that I intend to make it a practice.)

1. You can stall with the ball centered -- if the ball is not centered,
you can get a spin more easily when you stall.

2. The stall speed goes up as the square root of the secant (1/cosine)
of the angle of bank.

At:
30 deg: 1.07
45 deg: 1.19
60 deg: 1.41
75 deg: 1.97

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

Orval Fairbairn wrote in news_r_fairbairn-
:

In article
,
skym wrote:

While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was
going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to
final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as
possible. I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/
spin by some pilots in this situation, I kept thinking that if I keep
the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and
not auger in. Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct?
(Not that I intend to make it a practice.)

1. You can stall with the ball centered -- if the ball is not centered,
you can get a spin more easily when you stall.

2. The stall speed goes up as the square root of the secant (1/cosine)
of the angle of bank.


Which is, coincidenatlally, the load on the airplane. Minus the sq root
bit, of course.


At:
30 deg: 1.07
45 deg: 1.19
60 deg: 1.41
75 deg: 1.97