Unpaved Landing areas

"Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote in
:



Ummm ... not sure what you were flying but seems to me, FULL FLAPS is
in the drag flap area and not maximum lift.

Oh, you'll get more lift, but as you say it's the cost in drag that usually
makes this not such a good idea. HoweverI got stuck in snow in a 150 when I
was a student and my instructor came to the airport I was stuck at and took
off in well over 6 inches of fluff using 30 degrees to get off. Gets you
out of the muck faster but at the expense of climbe performance.


I can think of many
aircraft that state max flap for takeoff at 10 deg or whatever "one
notch" equates to.

Well, it depends on what you're loking for and how much runway and gradient
you have to spare. Yo'll get an aiplane off the ground more quickly,
generally speaking, at a higher flap setting, but it will cost you in
climb.
Also, it's not bad technique to get airborne a little on the slow side in
ground effect on a soft field as long as you dont try to climb out of it at
the same speed you came off the ground. Best technique for performance is
to get the attitude right to allow the airplane to come off as early as it
can solidly do so and then to rotate to your climb attitude as smoothly as
you can at such a rotation speed to ensure you reach climb attitude and
your climb speed simultaneously. This ensures you have close to the optimum
alpha at all times as you accelerate in and then climb out of ground
effect.


Bertie

"Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote in news:e4ad2017-e174-478c-
:

How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
paved runway?

Couple of days ago and again tomorrow. Varied, but one as short as about
1300'



Bertie

On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:06:07 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"
wrote:

How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
paved runway? The current books don't give it much thought and I
suspect because the writers are so new at this aviation thing, they
have little or no experience on anything but paved runways.
Part of the reason for this post was the resistance to more than a few
to not land on a great 2000' grass strip that has an Interstate on one
end, and trees on the other. I have no idea why they are afraid to
land on this strip. There are at least three grass strips of 2000'
length in this area and some that are longer (one is about 4000').
What has your experience been? I have no idea how much time I have
operating off strips of 1200' or less, grass, gravel, sand, etc and no
problems. Must be at least thousands of them, both in terms of take
off and landings as well as hours.
Ol S&B


there is nothing quite so sweet as operating a Tailwind from a grass
green runway 100 metres shorter than the manual says you can.
(which I do all the time)

best story re unmade strips is mike flying a tosser as pax in a Cessna
172. they were doing a cross country up north.
mike looks out the window and says to himself 'bugger it that'll do'
which gets picked up over the intercom.
mike pulls off the throttle, applies heat and lowers landing stages of
flaps and wheels it around for an approach to ....nothing.
tosser wannabe works himself up into an appoplexic lather at the
prospect of there being no runway ahead, just ...nothing.
mike pops it in with out any trouble and shuts down to a tosser with
eyes like saucers.
'you cant do that!'
'oh dont worry you dont have to ...back in a mo' '
mike walks to the end of the wing and has a ****.

back in the aircraft the tosser gets himself all worked up at the
prospect of a takeoff ...on nothing.

later mike tells us of all the commotion. it was a perfectly level
grassy area as a flat as a billiard table ...and I needed a ****.


I would suggest that students are taken for a landing in an aluminium
aircraft on a gravel runway. the din can take you by surprise.
but other than that these people are so limited by their fears and
lack of real experience that they are a worry. totally needless
apprehension.

Stealth Pilot

On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:06:07 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"
wrote:

How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
paved runway? The current books don't give it much thought and I
suspect because the writers are so new at this aviation thing, they
have little or no experience on anything but paved runways.
Part of the reason for this post was the resistance to more than a few
to not land on a great 2000' grass strip that has an Interstate on one
end, and trees on the other. I have no idea why they are afraid to
land on this strip. There are at least three grass strips of 2000'
length in this area and some that are longer (one is about 4000').
What has your experience been? I have no idea how much time I have
operating off strips of 1200' or less, grass, gravel, sand, etc and no
problems. Must be at least thousands of them, both in terms of take
off and landings as well as hours.
Ol S&B

I think it relates to experience and availability; occasionally to the type
of aircraft. We don't have too many grass strips to operate out of here in
the NE, that are also suitable for my aircraft.

For rental aircraft, there may be prohibitions agains landing on unpaved
runways.

I have a "mature" Mooney which (if the donuts are in good shape) has about
9" prop clearance and maybe 3-5" clearance at the gear doors. So, although
I'm not hesitant to operate off properly maintained grass, (and have done
so numerous times), I do have to be careful about those limits. (On the
newer Mooney's, removal of the gear doors is recommended in those
circumstances).

Probably my most challenging was 65B (Lubec, ME) which is about 2,000' with
trees at both ends, on a hot summer day. 1B2 (Katama) on Martha's Vineyard
is a popular destination and, when we lived closer, used to go there
frequently during the summer (5 minute walk from "beach parking" to the
beach).

Heck, when I was based at KASH, I used the grass adjacent to the runway
when the runway was being repaved, some years ago.
--ron

How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
paved runway?

Not very often. I'm still in primary training however and since I'm about to
take my test soon, I asked my FI to let me try some landings on a nearby
grass field used mainly by glider pilots but also PPR for powered aircraft.
Almost all other airfields in the vicinity have at least one paved runway so
these were my first landings on grass and probably the only ones for a long
time. Here's a picture

http://www.eddh.de/x-files/appr-pics/EDLC.jpg

Apart from being a bit bumpier than a paved strip and the runway being
several feet lower in the middle than at the ends...no big deal at least
when it's dry. And wind correction is also easier because you dont get that
annoying sound when you don't fully decrab before touchdown. I liked it.

I can't understand why insurance companies want higher rates for the
permission to land on unpaved strips...unless it's got something to do with
the many private airfields in the US in dubious condition. Couldn't happen
here in Germany...you are not allowed to land outside an officially approved
airfield and if it's an official airfield, the operator has to guarantee the
safety of the field.

How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
paved runway?

Not sure if this counts, but I flew ultralights back when I lived in
Arizona, and the runways were all dirt. The biggest problem was when
there was monsoon the night before, the strip turned to soup and would
be closed for at least a day.

On Tue, 1 Jul 2008 13:11:35 -0700 (PDT), Rocky Stevens
wrote:

Not sure if this counts, but I flew ultralights back when I lived in
Arizona, and the runways were all dirt. The biggest problem was when
there was monsoon the night before, the strip turned to soup and would
be closed for at least a day.

You should try flying from a grass field in New Hampshire! From
December to April, it's always an adventure.

I once taxied up to the gas pump to find Bonnie the flight insturctor
had gotten out her ice skates and was twirling about on the glaze. I
have literally been blown off the runway *sideways* when a crosswind
combines with glare ice. With one Cub, I found that I could negotiate
the turns better if I switched to Left magneto; the engine ran slower
and I was more likely to make the turn.

And that's only when it stays cold! Inevitably, a freeze is followed
by a thaw, and the surface to mud.

Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
new from HarperCollins www.FlyingTigersBook.com