FDR and Bush 43

"Chris Mark" wrote in message
...
From:

Bear in mind who was making the arrests: the FBI
under J. Edgar "like my dress?" Hoover.

To be fair to J. Edgar, he insisted that the majority of Issei, Nisei and
Kibei

Kibei? Issei is first generation, Nisei is second generation, but the last time
I looked, Ki was not a number anywhere in the first ten (ichi, ni, san, shi, go,
roku, shichi, hachi, ku, ju), so what does Kibei mean?

would prove to be loyal in the fight with Japan. If there were spies and
sabateurs among them, the FBI could ferret them out through normal
investigations.

It's comparable in that both FDR and Bush 43 faced one day events that
fundamentally changed the course of the country.

FDR mastered his challenge, Bush 43 is foundering.

Comparable? They are the same,because PSYOPs aganist its own people is the only
thing that some elements inside US gov't understands.

1)
"FDR stated that we are likely to be attacked perhaps as soon as next
Monday..The question was how we maneuver into the position of firing the first
shot without too much danger to ourselves.In spite of risk
involved,however,inletting Japanase fire the first shot,we realized that in
order to have the full support of the American People it was desirable to make
sure that the Japanase be the ones to do this so that there should remain no
doubt in anyone's mind as to who were the aggressors"
Henry Stimson,Journal entry dated Nov.25,1941

2)
"..as America becomes an increasingly multicultural society ,it may find it
more difficult to fashion a consensus on foreign policy issues,except in the
circumstances of a truly massive and direct widely perceived direct external
threat"

Zbigniew Brzezinski,Grand Chessboard,1997

3)...the process of transformation....is likely be a long one,absent some
catastrophic and catalyzing event -like a NEW PEARL HARBOR"

Rebuilding Americas Defenses,Sep.2000

4)
"The other day the reporter friend told me that one of the highest ranking CIA
officials said to him,off the record,that when the dust finally
clears,Americans will see that September 11 was a triumph for the intelligence
community,not a failure"

CIA agent Baer,See no Evil,2002

We see the same movie for 150 years.

From: "George Z. Bush"

what does Kibei mean?

Kibei were Japanese born in the US but who went to Japan for their education,
then returned to the US.


Chris Mark

From: "Steven P. McNicoll"

Japanese residents?

Not the best wording. I meant with the prhase to include Issei, who could not
by law become US citizens at the time, as well as native-born Americans of
Japanese ancestry (Nisei). I should have just said that.


Chris Mark

Chris Mark wrote:
From: "George Z. Bush"

what does Kibei mean?

Kibei were Japanese born in the US but who went to Japan for their education,
then returned to the US.

Thank you. I guess that makes them Japanese educated Nisei or perhaps Sansei.

George Z.

From: Cub Driver

Persico's Roosevelt's
Secret War, a sober and interesting book..

For anyone interested in delving a bit deeper into the details, the below
website gives a straightforward rundown of what happened, with original
documents.

http://www.campusprogram.com/referen...anese_american
_internment.html#Documents of Interest


Chris Mark

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Thomas Schoene" wrote in message
link.net...

German-American and Italian-American citizens of the United States were
not interned en masse; Japanese-American citizens were.


Not true. While it was not as wide spread and is not nearly as well known
as the incarceration of Japanese-Americans, there were Americans of
Italian and German descent that received similar treatment.

Here in Santa Cruz, the Italian-Americans were not interned, but were
restricted from going within a mile of the shoreline.

Since most of them were fishermen, that pretty much killed their
livelihoods. (Not to mention that in Santa Cruz, there were very few
places that weren't within a mile of the shoreline in 1942.)

I believe the restrictions were relaxed after the Italian surrender in
1943.

-Marc
--
Marc Reeve
actual email address after removal of 4s & spaces is
c4m4r4a4m4a4n a4t c4r4u4z4i4o d4o4t c4o4m

From: "Emmanuel Gustin"

Another big difference is that FDR made a big effort to build
alliances,

FDR also called Europe an incubator of wars, and it was one of his major
postwar policy goals to see that Europe was permanently disarmed.
Roosevelt’s vision was of a Europe that had been rendered strategically
irrelevant. As historian John Lamberton Harper has put it, he wanted “to
bring about a radical reduction in the weight of Europe� and thereby make
possible “the retirement of Europe from world politics.� This would enable
the US to go back to being left alone to pursue its own destiny in peace.
Of course, he died too soon to see his vision to full fruition. Truman turned
away from Roosevelt's vision, listening to George Kennan, who wanted to restore
Europe (really mostly Britain) to something like its pre-WWOne role in the
world with the US going back to its of the same. But Truman ultimately relied
on Dean Acheson's interventionist policies, which could be described as
Roosevelt's with teeth. These established the United States as a permanent
power in Europe at the behest of European and American interests. Acheson's
idea was that if the US provides military security for the European states, and
sees to it that none attack the other, their desire for military power will
wane over time and a demilitarized Europe will no longer pose a threat to the
US. And that is pretty much what has happened, despite the complication of the
Cold War and other distractions.


Chris Mark

On 21 Jun 2004 18:34:24 GMT, ost (Chris Mark) wrote:

FDR also called Europe an incubator of wars, and it was one of his major
postwar policy goals to see that Europe was permanently disarmed.

He bore a particular animus toward France. Sometimes it seems that his
principal object in a postwar Asia was to ensure that France would
never return to Indochina. (Too bad he didn't succeed!)

Britain was a tougher nut, given that it was in reality America's only
friend in the world with any potential for carrying a load (rather
like today). Roosevelt was equally skeptical about the British
empire, but he choked it down for the sake of Churchill.

As for Roosevelt's genius at coalition building, recall that it was
the cause of the Cold War that bedevilled the administrations of
Roosevelt, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, and
Reagan ... did I leve anyone out? Roosevelt was so afraid that Russia
would make a separate peace with Germany that he handed over half of
Europe to Stalin.

It is easy to romanticize the leaders of the past, now that their
blunderings have been frozen into history.

I happen to be reading William Manchester's account of Tarawa atoll.
When the marines went ashore at Betio, it was a typical battalion that
lost half its men. Altogether, for that bit of coral, America gave up
more than three thousand of its sons.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

"B2431" wrote in message
...



"JDupre5762" wrote in message
...
Let's compare and contrast here, shall we?


FDR allowed the Germans and Japanese to murder and torture
American
POWs at
will from 1941 to 1945 and the American Press never called him on
it.

No proof of that for the Germans at all: they complied strictly
with
the Geneva Convention. Over 95% of American POWs of the Germans
survived the war.


John Dupre'

They did? Not towards the Soviets or occupied territories

Halve those figures: the Communist took the opportunity to attribute
their own genocides to the Germans.

nor towards the 12 million murdered in the camps.

I doubt the size of those figures. I'd say the Bull**** factor in
them is just under 50%. If revisionist weren't jailed and harassed
and
were free to carry out their investigations we could get to the truth
sooner.


Want to keep it just to POWS? Ever heard of The Great Escape? 50
escapees were
murdered in groups of 2 or 3 AFTER being captured.

These men were not in uniform I believe and were thus treated as
illegal combatents. If they had on a uniform then this was clearly a
violation of the convention. Violations of the convention in terms
of illgeal executions, over work, inadaquete food were however still
rare.

Should Otto Skorneys Commandos that opperated in American uniform with
German ones beneath have been spared execution?

The US incidently has a habbit of of declaring prisoners illegal
combatents and non POWs

Ok, let's keep discussing
POWS. Ever heard of the "Commando Order" issued by Hitler?

Seems to have started when German prisoners with bound hands were
shot.

Collectively extending the punishment is of course also a violation of
the convention. It wasn't always applied. The legendary paratrooper
Oberstleutnant Walter Koch for instance refused to be iexecute the
order and ofcourse many of the paratroops were Nazi party members as
well. (It was not abnormal most of the parties affairs were quite
pedestrian) http://www.eagle19.freeserve.co.uk/koch.htm

How many allied air crews were murdered before becoming POWs?

You tell me. I'd say very very few. Perhaps they were upset at the
strafing of civilians and children walking along country roads?
There were plenty of pilots engaged in this evil act and children and
old people walking the roads between villages had a terrible fear of
tieffliger.

Or the shooting down of the Parachutes of downed pilots that was
particularly common towards then end of the war.

I'm not saying this was the norm, most airmen were decent, Art Kramer
for instance says he stopped strafing when a woman ran in front of his
gun.

I'm talking here about murders by
military people not civilians as in Hamburg where British aircrewen
who
parachuted into the city were bound and thrown alive into the
burning
buildings.

That was a problem in Japan as well where aircrew had to avoid
civilians in order to surrender to the IJN becuase the civilians were
likely to avenge themselves upon them.

If you had seen your children, niece nephews or grandchildren die in
repeated and apparently indiscriminant bombings on suburb you might in
the rage of the momment do the same. I can totaly understand that.

You should read "On the Natural History of Destruction" by W.G.
Sebald. One of the things the allies did is destroy the extensive
documentation the Germans had of the effects of fire bombing and the
wounds and deathes it created.

I've spoken to people that had to clean out flats with the body of a
mother scorched to death by fire huddled over he baby. When touched
these bodies often just crumpled into a pile of dust leaving nothing
but a wedding ring or other jewelery.



On the other hand FDR didn't "allow" Axis atrocities. He just
couldn't stop
them.


FDR was sick and a sham.

His toast was a salute to shooting them, "as fast as we can, all of
them." Churchill was horrified. Quick as a flash, he was on his feet;
his face and neck were red, says Elliott Roosevelt, who was present.
He announced that British conceptions of law and justice would never
tolerate such butchery. Into this breach stepped President Roosevelt.
He had a compromise to suggest. Instead of executing fifty thousand,
perhaps "we should settle on a smaller number. Shall we say 49,500?"
All the Russians at the table roared with laughter. So did the
Americans, who were obliged to show proper appreciation for their
chief's "humor." Churchill left the table." (1)

Undoubtedly, the President's little grim "joke" was a source of great
amusement for the Soviets, who were still laughing over the 14,000
Polish officers they had slain at Katyn, Miedjoye, and Kharkov Forest.
Later, one of President Roosevelt's interpreters said of his
emaciated, crippled chief: "He looked sick, he acted sick, and he
talked sick." (2)

Lest anyone think that the President's remark was made in jest,
consider that less than one year later he was willing to ratify the
notorious "Morgenthau Plan" , had it not been for the adamant
objections of his Secretary of War, Henry Stimson.

In order to fully appreciate the attitude of the allies in regard to
the treatment meted out to the defeated Germans, a brief review of
events would be in order. To those who might object that the allies
were too "civilized" to employ third degree methods on captured German
officers to extract damning "confessions", I believe that certain
criteria should first be investigated , presented, and addressed,
namely:

1. How did the allies treat non-combatants? How were Germans treated
who had nothing to do with the waging of the war? What was the allies
policy in regard to women, the elderly, and in particular, German
children?

2. How were German prisoners of war treated? Specifically, members of
the Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe, etc. against whom no criminal charges had
been preferred?

If the allies treated the defeated Germans with justice and equity,
and can be proven so by documentation and the actual historical
record, then the allegation that German POW's were tortured and
mistreated falls flat on it's face.

Let us now examine the record: Germany's civilian population received
a foretaste of allied policy in 1940, when British pilots bombed a
Berlin schoolhouse, killing a number of children. The air strikes
increased in severity over the course of the war, culminating in the
destruction of Dresden, Hamburg, Berlin, Nuremberg, Munich, and other
cities at a loss of probably half a million lives. It was a common
occurrence for allied pilots to bomb and strafe columns of refugees
and the homeless. For this reason, American and British pilots earned
the infamous sobriquet "terror-pilots" and were often treated as such
when caught by German civilians. Parachuting pilots were often killed
upon capture by German civilians who had often lost beloved family
members to the attacks of terror-bombers. The allies made it a point
to trace down the civilians responsible for these acts of righteous
retribution and summarily hanged them all, whenever and wherever they
were found.

The allies were particularly sensitive concerning the shooting of 50
allied fliers who had escaped from the Sagan POW camp in 1944. From
the German point of view, many of these fliers were warned that should
they attempt any more escapes, they would be shot. Aside from that,
many of the escapees were caught in civilian clothes or else in German
uniforms, thus leading the German authorities to conclude that they
were spies. When one reflects on the fact that members of Otto
Skorzeny's commando group, which infiltrated American lines during the
battle of the Bulge, were also shot upon capture even though they were
wearing German uniforms under the American gear, then the shooting of
the 50 terror fliers loses some of it's punch. Nevertheless, German
officers were executed for this "crime" while the allied crime of
shooting the German "spies" went unpunished.

The shooting of Americans at Malmedy was given the widest publicity,
and those German units which participated in this battle were all
brought before the allied inquisition, notwithstanding the fact that
the allies had, in one incident shot down members of the Waffen SS in
France in cold blood, and not one of the responsible parties was ever
brought to justice.

At Dachau, American soldiers lined German guards up against a wall and
shot them down without mercy. The Americans also allowed crazed
inmates of the camp to savagely murder other guards who were stationed
there. Often these victims were simply Wehrmacht officers who were
left to guard the camp after the SS personnel absconded.

When the allied armies first entered German territory, did the
victorious "champions of democracy" comport themselves with dignity
and honor? Let the reader be the judge. What follows is just an
excerpt from volumes of documents relating to the rampaging allied
troops as they plundered, raped, and stole from the defenseless German
population. The one crime most often committed by allied forces
against German civilians in all sectors was forcible, violent rape,
which is evidenced by a selection of the following reports. Few of the
offenders were ever punished for this crime against women and
children.

According to the publication "The U.S. Army in the Occupation of
Germany":

"Of all the crimes committed by U.S. troops, the best....documented
was rape, and it showed a "spiral increase" in the closing months of
the war. Between July 1942 and October 1945, 904 rape cases were
charged in the European theater, 552 of them in Germany. All told, 487
soldiers were tried for rapes committed in the months of March and
April, 1945.(!)....By no means all the incidents were reported or, of
those reported, brought to trial, and the conviction rate was
relatively low."(3)

"Reports of rape and robbery by U.S. troops piled up on the public
safety officer's desk.."(4)

"The tension was greatest in areas where Negro troops were stationed,
since they....frequently interpreted efforts to curb prostitution as
another form of discrimination. In Kuenzelsau, Wuerttemberg, Negro
soldiers of the 350th Field Artillery Battalion beat up the local
jailer when he refused to release prostitutes being held for venereal
disease treatment. Later the whole police in Kuenzelsau tried to
resign after being threatened that they would be killed if they
interfered with the prostitutes."(5)

"Nearly all incidents involved liquor or women, often both. The
population of vagrant women-which the Army inadvertently increased
after November when it released penicillin for treating venereal
diseases in German women, thereby shortening for some the "turn around
time" from jail or hospital and attracting others who had been
deterred by the fear of infection-was often at the root of soldier
attacks on German officials and police....In one instance an American
officer took an Austrian girl from Linz to Stuttgart, raped her three
times, and then transported her to Ulm, where he turned her over to
the military police on a charge of having improper papers." (6)

"...the Negroes, believing they were not getting an equal share of the
women, nursed grudges against both the Germans and the white
Americans." (7)

Take note that these are cases which have been confirmed by the Allied
Occupation Authorities. Other reports may be offered to substantiate
the above in greater detail:

"From the east came the Bolshevized Mongolian and Slavic hordes,
repeatedly raping every captured woman and girl, contaminating them
with venereal diseases and impregnating them with a future race of
Russo-German *******s.

In the west the British used colonial troops, the French Sengalese and
Moroccans, the Americans an excessively high percentage of Negroes.
Our own method was not so direct as the Russian: ....we compelled
women to yield their virtue in order to live-to get food to eat, beds
to sleep in, soap to bathe with, roofs to shelter them." (8)

The following was related by a catholic priest concerning a letter
which was smuggled out of Breslau, Germany, September 3, 1945: "In
unending succession were girls, women and nuns violated....Not merely
in secret, in hidden corners, but in the sight of everybody, even in
churches, in the streets and in public places were nuns, women and
even eight year old girls attacked again and again. Mothers were
violated before the eyes of their children; girls in the presence of
their brothers; nuns in the sight of pupils, were outraged again and
again to their very death even as corpses." (9)



Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

If anyone was to become a war criminal I suspect you would be the most
likely. You are so utterly without doubt convinced of the villany of
the enemy.

I've often wandered how many Iraqi's were shown no mercy because they
were accused of removing babies from baby incubators.