Opinions wanted

Robert Briggs wrote in message ...
tadaa wrote:

So selling weapons/weapon parts to conflicts makes you and your workforce
legal targets? Well actually the workforce, their families and basically
everyone that happens to live in that city.
If Germany would have bombed cities in USA to rubble before decleration of
war you would have accepted it because, hey there were aiding the allied
war effort?
Obviously Germany didn't have capacity for that, but that is just an
example.

Well, the Hun *did* bomb substantial parts of British cities to rubble.

Rubbish. Both quantitatively and qualitatively. All has industrial
targets, radio naviagation aids were used.

(ArtKramr) wrote in message ...
Subject: Opinions wanted
From: "The Enlightenment"
Date: 1/6/04 2:16 PM Pacific

Whereas Germany was desperatly
trying to avoid confrontation with the USA.

Not from where I sat they weren't.
Where the hell were you sitting?

Maybe you were reading the New York Times? A very Biased rag.

"At least I didn't miss the Ukrainian famine.
Cf. Pulitzer prize winning New York Times reporter Walter Duranty"

On 8 Jan 2004 06:10:02 -0800, (The Enlightenment)
wrote:


The Case for Pearl Harbor Revisionism
http://theoccidentalquarterly.com/vo...arlharbor.html


"A journal of nationalist thought and opinion"

Yeah right. Next you'll be telling us all to 'prove me wrong' (sic).



Under the terms of the armistice of 1917 the naval and trade blockade
was to be immediatly lifted against Germany.

What armistice of 1917 ?

Inorder to force Germany
into harsh terms the terms of the armistice were violated. In that
period over 1 million Germans starved to death. That leaves a lasting
impression.

The only lasting impression left around here is the ever more increasing
depths you plumb to peddle nazi revisionism.


greg

--
You do a lot less thundering in the pulpit against the Harlot
after she marches right down the aisle and kicks you in the nuts.

Subject: Opinions wanted
From: (The Enlightenment)
Date: 1/8/04 6:18 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote in message
...
Subject: Opinions wanted
From: "The Enlightenment"
Date: 1/6/04 2:16 PM Pacific

Whereas Germany was desperatly
trying to avoid confrontation with the USA.

Not from where I sat they weren't.
Where the hell were you sitting?

Maybe you were reading the New York Times? A very Biased rag.

No. I was sitting in the nose of a bomber over Germany and taking all the ****
the Nazi *******s could throw at me. If all you know is what you read in the
papers you know nothing as your posts indicate.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Opinions wanted
From: (The Enlightenment)
Date: 1/8/04 6:16 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Robert Briggs wrote in message
.. .
tadaa wrote:

So selling weapons/weapon parts to conflicts makes you and your workforce
legal targets? Well actually the workforce, their families and basically
everyone that happens to live in that city.
If Germany would have bombed cities in USA to rubble before decleration
of
war you would have accepted it because, hey there were aiding the allied
war effort?
Obviously Germany didn't have capacity for that, but that is just an
example.

Well, the Hun *did* bomb substantial parts of British cities to rubble.

Rubbish. Both quantitatively and qualitatively. All has industrial
targets, radio naviagation aids were used.


Tell that to the thousands of woman and children bombed out of their homes in
residential areas by the Nazi *******s.
The image you project of ethical humane Nazis leaves much to be questioned.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On 06 Jan 2004 05:51:44 EST, Mark and Kim Smith wrote:



ArtKramr wrote:

I am going to outline a real situaitoin that occured during WW II. I would
like to hear opinions and solutions as to how the situation should be handled.
I will give the real solutuion that was imposed during the war after a week or
so when many opinions have been offered.

There was a large factory producing torpedo gyroscopes and timeing devices
for the German submarine service. It was located in the midst of a very
populated area where the highly skilled workers lived with their families.
These workers were near irreplaceable. It took many years to learn the needed
skills, and without these workers production and quality would have been
dramatically down graded. One more point. This factory was not in any country
with which America or England was at war. What would you have done? Remember
these German torpedoes were slaughtering American and British seamen and
denying food and arms to England. What would you have done? Opinions?




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer



Bomb 'em, claim it's an accident, blame it on weather, inexperience,
confusion and other stuff. Offer lots of cash as reparations. Tell 'em
you'll make a "no bomb" zone that you'll try to stick to.

They are selling war material to the Nazis, why bother to be "nice". Just
destroy the factory and the workers.

Al Minyard

Subject: Opinions wanted
From: Alan Minyard
Date: 1/8/04 12:01 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On 06 Jan 2004 05:51:44 EST, Mark and Kim Smith
wrote:



ArtKramr wrote:

I am going to outline a real situaitoin that occured during WW II. I
would
like to hear opinions and solutions as to how the situation should be
handled.
I will give the real solutuion that was imposed during the war after a week
or
so when many opinions have been offered.

There was a large factory producing torpedo gyroscopes and timeing
devices
for the German submarine service. It was located in the midst of a very
populated area where the highly skilled workers lived with their families.
These workers were near irreplaceable. It took many years to learn the
needed
skills, and without these workers production and quality would have been
dramatically down graded. One more point. This factory was not in any
country
with which America or England was at war. What would you have done?
Remember
these German torpedoes were slaughtering American and British seamen and
denying food and arms to England. What would you have done? Opinions?




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer



Bomb 'em, claim it's an accident, blame it on weather, inexperience,
confusion and other stuff. Offer lots of cash as reparations. Tell 'em
you'll make a "no bomb" zone that you'll try to stick to.

They are selling war material to the Nazis, why bother to be "nice". Just
destroy the factory and the workers.

Al Minyard

Al you are my kind of guy. Once a bombardier, always a bombardier (grin)





Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

From: Alan Minyard


On 06 Jan 2004 05:51:44 EST, Mark and Kim Smith
wrote:


ArtKramr wrote:

I am going to outline a real situaitoin that occured during WW II. I
would
like to hear opinions and solutions as to how the situation should be
handled.
I will give the real solutuion that was imposed during the war after a week
or
so when many opinions have been offered.

There was a large factory producing torpedo gyroscopes and timeing
devices
for the German submarine service. It was located in the midst of a very
populated area where the highly skilled workers lived with their families.
These workers were near irreplaceable. It took many years to learn the
needed
skills, and without these workers production and quality would have been
dramatically down graded. One more point. This factory was not in any
country
with which America or England was at war. What would you have done?
Remember
these German torpedoes were slaughtering American and British seamen and
denying food and arms to England. What would you have done? Opinions?




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer



Bomb 'em, claim it's an accident, blame it on weather, inexperience,
confusion and other stuff. Offer lots of cash as reparations. Tell 'em
you'll make a "no bomb" zone that you'll try to stick to.

They are selling war material to the Nazis, why bother to be "nice". Just
destroy the factory and the workers.

Al Minyard


The Swiss may have been officially neutral, but they laundered Nazi gold,
allowed rail shipment of POWS and Jews through their country etc.

In my opinion any good the Swiss did during the war, and they did quite a bit,
is more than negated by enabling the Nazis to continue fighting by laundering
gold and by denying holocaust survivors access to their own moneys after the
war.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

The Germans made efforts to avoid bombing Warsaw and Rotterdam from
the historical documents I have read. Rotterdam for example, was being
used as a defensive position by the allies and there was actual house
to house combat taking place in the city. The germans used the threat
of aerial bombardment much like nuclear weapons are used today, as a
bargaining tool. In the case of Rotterdam, the Germans were demanding
the surrender of the defending forces. The allied forces, after
waiting much too long, did not sue for surrender terms until the
German bombers were well on their way to target. In any case, the
German bombers could not be called back in time by radio, and the use
of red flares by the ground forces to signal the bombers not to drop
were only partially successful as they were hard to see in the already
smokey and burning city. (due to the fact that the city was a combat
zone) In fact, a large number of the bombers were able to avoid
dropping their bombs when their bombardiers saw that red flares were
being shot into the air. So in fact, the Germans had made many efforts
to avoid attacking Rotterdam. Warsaw and Rotterdam were both cities
that were bombed because of the fact that the defending troops had
bunkered themselves down in the city itself. How can anyone do that
and not expect to be attacked as strictly a military target. In fact,
Germany made every effort not to attack any civilian targets over
Britain until one of their Heinkel He-111 accidentally dropped its
bombs over parts of London i believe and the British in turn decided
to bomb Berlin in a reprisal raid. This is what sparked the beginning
of the "Blitz" and the subsequent bombing of major cities by both
sides.

To Art's original question, I would have to assume that all
diplomatic avenues take place to stop production, and then covert
operations to sabotage the plant be taken. If those were all
unsuccessfull, and assuming the threat of bombardement was stated in
the diplomatic exchanges, I would opt for a highly accurate
dive-bombing strike by a select group of experienced dive-bomber
pilots, and under heavy fighter escort. The use of level bombers
during World War II such as the B-17, B-24, etc. on urban centers, has
always been a very controversial topic due to their inherent lack of
accuracy during WWII and the subsequent collatoral damages caused by
area bombardment. The question is, when is it OK to knowingly and
willingly bomb unarmed and defencless civilians? That kind of question
you could discuss for ever as well.

P.S. Art, I know your probably going to attack me as some kind of Nazi
apologetic *******, but I understand why you feel the way you do and I
will respect you all the same for the service you provided for your
country and mine by fighting against the Axis forces.

Sincerely,
Ryan Muntener


"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"tadaa" wrote in message ...


So were London, Coventry and Liverpool neutral countries?



No but Holland was and that didnt prevent Rotterdam being bombed
by the Luftwaffe

Keith

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Opinions wanted
From: (The Enlightenment)
Date: 1/8/04 6:16 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Robert Briggs wrote in message
.. .
tadaa wrote:

So selling weapons/weapon parts to conflicts makes you and your
workforce
legal targets? Well actually the workforce, their families and
basically
everyone that happens to live in that city.
If Germany would have bombed cities in USA to rubble before
decleration
of
war you would have accepted it because, hey there were aiding
the allied
war effort? Obviously Germany didn't have capacity for that,
but that is
just an example.

Well, the Hun *did* bomb substantial parts of British cities to
rubble.

Rubbish. Both quantitatively and qualitatively. All had industrial
targets, radio navigation aids were used.


Tell that to the thousands of woman and children bombed out of their
homes in
residential areas by the Nazi *******s.
The image you project of ethical humane Nazis leaves much to be
questioned.


The Luftwaffe Pilots had the same ethics and concerns as you did. No
insult intended.