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#41
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UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder
"tscottme" blahblah@blah,net wrote in message
... I know at one time the US deployed tethered "blimps" carrying radar to provide radar coverage along the border, and even in the Florida Keys. I've seen the lighter-than-air vehicles while flying or driving in the area. It's been a few years since I was near the areas. I'm not sure if they still operate or not. As of about a year or so ago, there was still one down in the Keys... The one that is south of Houston along the coast, I haven't stumbled across in a few years, but I suspect it's still there... |
#42
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UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder
On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 10:52:42 GMT, Jack wrote in
:: Larry Dighera wrote: Why...deploy UAVs for the mission of securing the nation's southern border? Because UAVs cost millions of dollars, and require a crew of 7 on the ground to operate them.... How many people are required to keep a 182 operating on the same mission? That's a good question. Perhaps you'll find time to research it. It's clear that it doesn't take 7 people to fly a C-172 as it does a UAV. |
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UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:16:13 -0800, Richard Riley
wrote in :: On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:45:58 GMT, Larry Dighera wrote: :On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 08:52:21 -0800, Richard Riley wrote in :: : :Is the equipment specification in that Request For Proposal a result f necessity to accomplish the mission of securing the nation's :boarders, or was the specification established to conform to re-existing UAV equipment? (are you able to provide a URL for the :RFP?) Search for hsbp1005r0425 These two references were all I found: http://www.fbodaily.com/archive/2005...O-00833130.htm FBO DAILY ISSUE OF JUNE 23, 2005 FBO #1305 SOLICITATION NOTICE 15 -- Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) Notice Date 6/21/2005 Notice Type Solicitation Notice NAICS 541330 — Engineering Services Contracting Office DHS - Border and Transportation Security, Customs and Border Protection, Office of Procurement, 1300 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W., Room 1310 NP, Washington, DC, 20229 ZIP Code 20229 Solicitation Number HSBP1005R0425 Response Due 7/19/2005 Archive Date 8/3/2005 Description Please Note that this Announcement is issued in order to upload Solicitation HSBP1005R0425 into FebBizOpps and is not a notice of a new requirement. It is the resulting solicitation that was announced earlier as Reference Number 5-10-2005-UAV-FY05 SUBJECT: PRESOLICITATION NOTICE - Department of Homeland Security Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV). GENERAL INFORMATION: The Department of Homeland Security, Customs and Border Protection (CBP) Office of Border Patrol intends to issue a Request for Proposal (RFP) to procure an operating UAV system(s) (UAV airframe(s) and sensors, Ground Control Stations (GCSs), Sensor Control Terminals (SCTs) and Remote Viewing Terminals (RVTs)). CBP is seeking sources that can provide a medium altitude long endurance UAV system(s), support equipment, air vehicle and sensor operators, maintenance personnel and systems integration support. Initial operations are intended to be conducted on the Southern Border of the United States. CBP intends to commence UAV operations 30 days after contract award. CBP anticipates conducting operations during 4th Quarter FY 05. Operations and maintenance support shall be month-to-month for a minimum of 224 hours per month, with the potential for increased flying hours each month, above the minimum. For this effort an Indefinite Delivery, Indefinite Quantity type contract for engineering services, Time and Material for operations and maintenance support, and Firm Fixed Price (FFP) pricing arrangements for UAV systems is anticipated. The Government anticipates a single-award contract pursuant to the criteria in the RFP. This will be a Full and Open Competition. It is anticipated that the solicitation will be issued on or about May 26, 2005. Note: The reference number used to identify this pre-solicitation notice is not the solicitation number. When the solicitation for this requirement is posted a DHS solicitation number with the appropriate nomenclature will be used. POINT OF CONTACT: U.S. Customs and Border Protection, Office of Procurement, Suite 1310, ATTN: Sharon Lim, 1300 Pennsylvania Ave., NW, Washington, D.C. 20229. All questions and comments should be in writing and should be directed to the Contracting Officer, Sharon Lim, via email. The contact information for the contracting officer is as follows: Telephone (202) 344-1112, Fax (202) 344-1190 or Email: . Place of Performance Address: Southern Border of the United States Record SN00833130-W 20050623/050621211521 (fbodaily.com) Source FedBizOpps.gov Link to This Notice (may not be valid after Archive Date) http://www.fbodaily.com/archive/2005...O-00834206.htm FBO DAILY ISSUE OF JUNE 24, 2005 FBO #1306 MODIFICATION 15 -- Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) Notice Date 6/22/2005 Notice Type Modification NAICS 336411 — Aircraft Manufacturing Contracting Office DHS - Border and Transportation Security, Customs and Border Protection, Office of Procurement, 1300 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W., Room 1310 NP, Washington, DC, 20229 ZIP Code 20229 Solicitation Number Reference-Number-5-10-2005-UAV-FY05 Response Due 7/19/2005 Archive Date 8/3/2005 Description PLEASE NOTE: INFORMATION RELATING TO THIS REQUIREMENT IS NOW AVAILABLE UNDER SOLICITATION REFERENCE NUMBER: HSBP1005R0425 WHICH WAS POSTED 6/21/2005 SUBJECT: PRESOLICITATION NOTICE - Department of Homeland Security Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV). GENERAL INFORMATION: The Department of Homeland Security, Customs and Border Protection (CBP) Office of Border Patrol intends to issue a Request for Proposal (RFP) to procure an operating UAV system(s) (UAV airframe(s) and sensors, Ground Control Stations (GCSs), Sensor Control Terminals (SCTs) and Remote Viewing Terminals (RVTs)). CBP is seeking sources that can provide a medium altitude long endurance UAV system(s), support equipment, air vehicle and sensor operators, maintenance personnel and systems integration support. Initial operations are intended to be conducted on the Southern Border of the United States. CBP intends to commence UAV operations 30 days after contract award. CBP anticipates conducting operations during 4th Quarter FY 05. Operations and maintenance support shall be month-to-month for a minimum of 224 hours per month, with the potential for increased flying hours each month, above the minimum. For this effort an Indefinite Delivery, Indefinite Quantity type contract for engineering services, Time and Material for operations and maintenance support, and Firm Fixed Price (FFP) pricing arrangements for UAV systems is anticipated. The Government anticipates a single-award contract pursuant to the criteria in the RFP. This will be a Full and Open Competition. It is anticipated that the solicitation will be issued on or about May 26, 2005. Note: The reference number used to identify this pre-solicitation notice is not the solicitation number. When the solicitation for this requirement is posted a DHS solicitation number with the appropriate nomenclature will be used. POINT OF CONTACT: U.S. Customs and Border Protection, Office of Procurement, Suite 1310, ATTN: Sharon Lim, 1300 Pennsylvania Ave., NW, Washington, D.C. 20229. All questions and comments should be in writing and should be directed to the Contracting Officer, Sharon Lim, via email. The contact information for the contracting officer is as follows: Telephone (202) 344-1112, Fax (202) 344-1190 or Email: . Record SN00834206-W 20050624/050622211524 (fbodaily.com) Source FedBizOpps.gov Link to This Notice (may not be valid after Archive Date) And then there's the irony of this: http://uvscanada.org/blog/?p=13 . Imagine an American neighboring country looking at US border patrol equipment. None of the manufacturers were able to provide a UAV that met all their specs, so the specs were NOT written to match existing hardware. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to locate those specifications on-line. Are you able to provide a URL for them? Predator B won, they came the closest. From the General Atomics Aeronautical Systems, Inc web-site: http://www.uav.com/products/predator_b.html The Predator B aircraft was developed in 2000 with first flight commencing in February 2001. Powered by a turboprop engine, the Predator B series was designed as a long-endurance, high-altitude unmanned aircraft for use as a multi-mission system by a variety of customers. From reconnaissance, surveillance, targeting, and weapons delivery to scientific research and other civilian applications, Predator B has the capacity to conduct multiple missions simultaneously due to its large internal and external payload capacity. PREDATOR B Military Multi-Mission ISR Wingspan: 66 ft (20.1168m) Fuselage: 36 ft (10.9728m) Weight: 10,000 lb (4536 kg) Altitude: 50,000 ft Endurance: 30+ hr Payload: Internal - 800 lb (363 kg) External - 3,000 lb (1361 kg) Powerplant: Honeywell TPE 331-10T Air Speed: Over 220 kn Customer: U.S. Air Force ALTAIR High-Altitude Scientific Research Wingspan: 86 ft (26.2128m) Fuselage: 36 ft (10.9728m) Weight: 7,000 lb (3175 kg) Altitude: 52,000 ft Endurance: 30+ hr Payload: Internal - 660 lb (300 kg) External - 3,000 lb (1361 kg) Powerplant: Honeywell TPE 331-10T Air Speed: TBA Customer: NASA MARINER Long-Endurance Border & Maritime Surveillance Wingspan: 86 ft (26.2128m) Fuselage: 36 ft (10.9728m) Weight: 10,500 lb (4763 kg) Altitude: 52,000 ft Endurance: 49+ hr Payload: Internal - 800 lb (363 kg) External - 3,000 lb (1361 kg) Powerplant: Honeywell TPE 331-10T Air Speed: Over 220 kn Customer: U.S. Navy, Dept of Homeland Security More information he http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/predator/ Other proposals were less expensive, and one (at least) took a very creative approach to provide the same capabilities using smaller vehicles at lower cost, but it didn't quite conform to the requirements. It sure would be interesting to see those requirements (and the proposals). I don't agree with your basic assumptions, but since I work in the field I won't engage you debate. I respect your decision, but what better debate is there but that between two people with differing viewpoints? You shouldn't have anything to fear (from your government nor employer). If the decision to employ UAVs for border patrol can't stand open public debate, perhaps there is something suspect about it. |
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UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 22:20:24 -0500, "Morgans"
wrote in :: "Larry Dighera" wrote In fact, to my knowledge, the UAV manufacturers have not yet demonstrated a synthetic vision system adequate to permit UAVs to comply with FAA see-and-avoid regulations. You know, I wonder why they have not developed some means, yet. It's probably quite difficult. Don't forget, these UAVs operate antonymous (without operator input) on some missions and whenever the command radio link is inoperative. At those times there is no possibility of human intervention in the event of a potential MAC. There are certainly radar systems that could be tuned to detect planes in the area. But, could they be shown to be infallible? Perhaps they could just swing their existing ground surveillance systems up and around the surrounding airspace once in a while, to make sure the airspace is clear? What of the NORDO wooden glider with the right of way over powered aircraft? |
#45
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UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder
Larry Dighera wrote:
It's clear that it doesn't take 7 people to fly a C-172 as it does a UAV. And it's also clear you can't give the Cessna the UAV's capabilities. You appear to have a political axe to grind, since you can't demonstrate any mission advantage to the Cessna. Here's a political football for you: the whole damn border ought to be a TFR and a triple concertina wired no-man's land, with well-armed guards shooting on sight anything that moves. Jack |
#46
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UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder
On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 17:58:22 GMT, Jack wrote:
Here's a political football for you: the whole damn border ought to be a TFR and a triple concertina wired no-man's land, with well-armed guards shooting on sight anything that moves. ask the former border patrols from East-Germany. They have some knowledge. Also the Chinese might help a little. #m -- If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? W. Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice, Act III, scene I |
#47
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UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder
On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 17:58:22 GMT, Jack wrote in
:: Larry Dighera wrote: It's clear that it doesn't take 7 people to fly a C-172 as it does a UAV. And it's also clear you can't give the Cessna the UAV's capabilities. Which is it, the Cessna or the UAV's capabilities? (I always love it when I've got 'em sputterin'.) If you question any of the information I have provided, it is your responsibility to find data that supports your argument, not mine. You appear to have a political axe to grind, Yes. I am not happy with Bush's unconstitutional/illegal repeal of personal liberty and privacy, upon which this UAV patrolled border policy seems to further encroach. since you can't demonstrate any mission advantage to the Cessna. I find cost to be an advantage. Don't you? Here's a political football for you: the whole damn border ought to be a TFR and a triple concertina wired no-man's land, with well-armed guards shooting on sight anything that moves. Why? |
#48
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UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder
tscottme wrote:
I know at one time the US deployed tethered "blimps" carrying radar to provide radar coverage along the border, and even in the Florida Keys. I've seen the lighter-than-air vehicles while flying or driving in the area. It's been a few years since I was near the areas. I'm not sure if they still operate or not. Click here for more info http://tinyurl.com/9wjup The aerostats are still in place. You can find them on aviation charts covering the appropriate areas. Mike |
#49
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UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder
"John Doe" wrote in message ink.net... How much of the American boarder with Mexico is out of radar contact? There was some fuss about the FAA creating TFRs for the UAVs that are flying with boarder patrol along the Mexico. Why can't the UAV just fly along under an IFR flight plan and everyone else just avoid the little thing just like any other plane on an IFR flight plan? When there is so much talk about securing the boarders, I can't imagine that there is any strip of the boarder that we can not monitor by radar. What if we made the boarder area a MOA instead of a TFR? Seems to me the risk of a mid-air is much higher flying through an active MOA (which is currently allowed) with a manned fighter jet moving at tactical speeds than it is with a slow moving UAV (even though it's unmanned). |
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UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder
"Bob Fry" wrote in message news "JD" == John Doe writes: JD Why can't the UAV just fly along under an IFR flight plan and JD everyone else just avoid the little thing just like any other JD plane on an IFR flight plan? Because that's not the way it works in VMC. In VMC, *everybody* avoids everybody else visually, as well as with other aids (ATC). So if the "little thing" is flying, and I'm flying, and it's VMC and I'm not talking to ATC, and I don't see that "little thing", and of course nobody is onboard the UAV to see me....midairs happen. So how does it work with the Global Hawk UAV which was granted a national certificate of authorization by the FAA in 2003 to fly on an IFR flight plan in unrestricted airspace in the US? |
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