If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#41
|
|||
|
|||
The bottom line is this:
During the Vietnam era it wasn't too difficult for the draft age sons of the wealthy and/or politically well placed to find ways of avoiding the posibility of going to Vietnam or in many cases avoiding military service altogether! That said, I think at the time, most of the reluctance to serve in the military was more of an issue of facing the regementation, dicipline and the loss of personal freedoms encountered in every day military life rather than the fear of bodily harm from combat in Vietnam. "DO YOU MISS YOUR MOMMY!" "WHAT'S MARYJANE ROTTENCROTCH DOING WHILE YOU'RE AWAY MAGGOT!" The prospect of Boot Camp and military service was ( and probably still is) just plain scary! Before 1965, joining the service was a way out of poverty for many young men and was generally looked upon with respect. I joined the service right out of high school because I wanted adventure plus I felt that I was serving my country. For me it was a way to travel and see the world. One side effect of the Draft and Vietnam war in the 1960s was the number of young men who went to college or got married and had children just to get a Draft Deferment. One friend went to school from 1962 until 1969. He got married and had 2 kids. When he finally graduated, he got drafted and spent a year in 'Nam as a grunt. Things changed after 1965. There were many young men who enlisted the same day they received a notice from their Draft Board. They tried to get into the Air Force or Navy (or reserves) thinking that a 4 year enlistment was better than 2 years in the Army as a draftee. I volunteered, that was my choice and like most people who served their country whether they got drafted or enlisted, I was not a hero nor did I do anything special. I just did my duty. Like most, I was "Shot at and missed, **** at and hit"! I never really faulted most people for trying to avoid military service. However I never respected poor little rich kids who landed cushy positions in the reserves or received some kind of deferement because mommy and daddy didn't want to see little Jr. come home in a box. What about all of the thousands of poorer kids who had no choice! Yes, Bill Clinton avoided getting drafted but so did most of the young men who attended college in the late 60s including many prominent members of George Ws entourage especially Cheney who "had other things to do"! Whether we ever find the truth about W's service record (along with his pre-1995 Texas driver's license record) will be a subject for debate. One thing that rubs me wrong is that George W got an early discharge from the Texas ANG so that he could attend graduate school. Now isn't that special! I was due to be discharged in October, 1965. I was trying to "get a Cut", an early discharge to attend school myself. On August 20, 1965, ALL members of the US Navy and Marines got an involuntary 4 month extention at the convience of the government tagged on to their enlistment. I don't remember how long the extention was in effect but it sure messed up my plans. My dad wasn't a congressman. A more important issue that affects all of is is that we have gotten bogged down in a quagmire in Iraq, led there by a bunch of Chicken Hawks who never heard a shot fired in anger! |
#42
|
|||
|
|||
"* * Chas" wrote in message om... The bottom line is this: During the Vietnam era it wasn't too difficult for the draft age sons of the wealthy and/or politically well placed to find ways of avoiding the posibility of going to Vietnam or in many cases avoiding military service altogether! But you are a fake Vet, Chad; much like Kerry's peers before Congress in '72. |
#43
|
|||
|
|||
"* * Chas" wrote in message om... snip Yes, Bill Clinton avoided getting drafted but so did most of the young men who attended college in the late 60s But "most of the young men" did not play footsie with the ROTC PMS to get a deferment, then as soon as it became obvious they were not going to be drafted anyway, dump the ROTC program with a letter that states they "loathed" the folks who *were* serving in *any* capacity--Clinton did. including many prominent members of George Ws entourage especially Cheney who "had other things to do"! Whether we ever find the truth about W's service record The truth has been published, and has been repeatedly "discovered", and the folks claiming he failed to perform the duties he was required to perform have not been able to prove their case; when the New York Times, which is definitely no friend of GWB, investigates the claims and concludes that he did indeed meet his obligations, then you gotta wonder about the basis for thses claims. (along with his pre-1995 Texas driver's license record) will be a subject for debate. Are there any other specious accusations you'd like to make about GWB? I mean, gee, the guy has repeatedly admitted he had an alcohol problem, and by all reports he kicked it. Bully for him. Unlike his predecessor, who clung to his vices throughout his White House stay, he demonstrated an ability to overcome his failing in this case. One thing that rubs me wrong is that George W got an early discharge from the Texas ANG so that he could attend graduate school. Now isn't that special! Yeah! Gosh, I guess you *really* hate Kerry, who got an early discharge as well, largely because he happened to be serving as an Admiral's aide? Glass houses and rocks... I was due to be discharged in October, 1965. I was trying to "get a Cut", an early discharge to attend school myself. On August 20, 1965, ALL members of the US Navy and Marines got an involuntary 4 month extention at the convience of the government tagged on to their enlistment. I don't remember how long the extention was in effect but it sure messed up my plans. My dad wasn't a congressman. And your supervisor was not an Admiral. A more important issue that affects all of is is that we have gotten bogged down in a quagmire in Iraq, What quagmire? You mean the "quagmire" that saw the ousting of one of the more ruthless dictators we have seen in recent memory, or the one where we have now extended the power and telephone grids to serve more people than they did *before* the war, or the one where the AQ-related fellow just had his letter intercepted admitting that things were not going too well for the insurgents, and that they should shift focus to killing more Shiites in a desperate attempt to foment civil insurrection? led there by a bunch of Chicken Hawks who never heard a shot fired in anger! Is Colin Powell a "chicken hawk"? How about the former CENTCOM commander, GEN Franks? If you are referring to the guy in the White House...well, gee, I guess you REALLY hated Clinton and his "Get Aidid" policy in Somalia, huh? And how many shots did Gore hear fired in anger during his (short) tour in Vietnam? And wasn't he the (gasp!) son of a Senator? Brooks |
#44
|
|||
|
|||
|
#45
|
|||
|
|||
"B2431" wrote in message ... From: "* * Chas" The bottom line is this: During the Vietnam era it wasn't too difficult for the draft age sons of the wealthy and/or politically well placed to find ways of avoiding the posibility of going to Vietnam or in many cases avoiding military service altogether! I read somewhere reliable that the casualties of rich people in Viet Nam was no lower than that of the poor. Were there more middle class in Viet Nam than rich? Yes, ofcourse, the "middle class" population is, and was, bigger than the upper and lower classes combined. The percentage of black casualties was roughly the same percentage as the U.S. black population etc. Can we find examples of people using influence to get cushy spots? Sure, it happens throughout society at all levels. I hardly call joining the guard or reserves avoiding the draft since they are military services. This is expcially true since there were elements of both who went to Viet Nam and you can find the names of some of them on the wall. By the way, being drafted did not ensure a trip to Viet Nam in the infantry. Draftees were given MOS and posts as needed. If memory serves the percentage of draftees who saw combat as about 50%. While the military effort against Vietnam saw 20% in combat? |
#46
|
|||
|
|||
* * Chas wrote:
The bottom line is this: During the Vietnam era it wasn't too difficult for the draft age sons of the wealthy and/or politically well placed to find ways of avoiding the posibility of going to Vietnam or in many cases avoiding military service altogether! Yes, that's true; they dodged the draft by attending college, hoping their deferment would last longer than the war. The wealthy and well-connected had a much easier time gaining entry somewhere - when there were three qualified male applicants for every available college slot... and every one of them trying to dodge the draft. That said, I think at the time, most of the reluctance to serve in the military was more of an issue of facing the regementation, dicipline and the loss of personal freedoms encountered in every day military life rather than the fear of bodily harm from combat in Vietnam. Horse****. If you were classified 1-A (physically fit and mentally competent) you would be drafted, period, at age 19 or upon completion of your four-year college deferment. (Ask me how I know. There was no draft lottery back then.) With a 1-A classification, most employers would not hire you - because you would definitely be gone in less than six months (and they'd be required by law to rehire you if you returned). The prospect of Boot Camp and military service was ( and probably still is) just plain scary! One side effect of the Draft and Vietnam war in the 1960s was the number of young men who went to college or got married and had children just to get a Draft Deferment. Now you're talking; but the deferment for fathers disappeared in 1967 or 68. Things changed after 1965. There were many young men who enlisted the same day they received a notice from their Draft Board. Only in a service that had plenty of openings: the Army or Marines. They tried to get into the Air Force or Navy (or reserves) thinking that a 4 year enlistment was better than 2 years in the Army as a draftee. They were right - but very foolish not to have gotten their name on a waiting list a year earlier. The waiting lists for the guard, reserves, or Coast Guard in most cases extended far into the future - longer than any enlistment in one of those services. A year's wait was about right - though even the AF was taking Sky Cops on short notice, as was the Navy hiring common deck hands for immediate enlistment. - John T, former Msgt, USAF (drafted during the Tet Offensive, and magically moved up on the AF waiting list to avoid the draft by a couple of days.) |
#47
|
|||
|
|||
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message ... "dougdrivr" wrote in message ... "Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message om... "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message thlink.net... "Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message om... During the Vietnam War, National Guard troops stayed in the US and were only activated for natural disasters and riot control. That's not correct. On May 13, 1968, 12,234 Army National Guardsmen in 20 units from 17 states were mobilized for service during the Vietnam War. Eight units deployed to Vietnam. One of them, Company D (Ranger), 151st Infantry, Indiana National Guard, earned distinction as one of the most highly decorated combat units of the war. On January 25, 1968, eight ANG Tactical Fighter Squadrons and three Tactical Reconnaissance Squadrons were mobilized. A second callup on April 11 added two Tactical Fighter Squadrons and an Aeromedical Airlift Squadron. Four of the fighter squadrons served in combat in Vietnam, flying F-100Cs. Thanks. Were those the only Guardsmen deployed in Vietnam. IF so, T\that would mean that less than 5% of the troops who served the US in Vietnam were activated National Guard. I (also) don't know how many Guardsnmen there were in the US but I will be careful in the future to say that _almost_ no guardsmen were deployed in Vietnam. President Johnson called up the Guard and Reserves right after the USS Pueblo was captured by the North Koreans in January 1968. While he emphatically stated that the National Guard would not be sent to Viet Nam, this was only partially true. The unit flags stayed in the US and the men were sent to Viet Nam as replacements. In my Brigade ( the 69th Inf, mostly from Kansas, Iowa, and Nebraska), 65% of the enlisted men and 95% of the Officers were sent to Viet Nam. Thirty-seven members of the 69th were KIA while serving in RVN. The number of wounded is not even mentioned. Interesting; I had thought the guys out of the Hawaii ARNG brigade were the only ones who went through that kind of treatment. Incidents like your's were a sore point in the relationship between the ARNG and active Army for a long time. But FYI, a number of ARNG units, complete with flags, were indeed deployed to Vietnam under that same mobilization effort. As another poster has already mentioned, the INARNG's D-51st Inf Co (Ranger) was one, and a few arty battalions and some CS/CSS units also made the trip. IIRC an arty unit from the KYARNG was involved in a rather close fight when its firebase came under attack. And IIRC those KIA's you mention were not included in the ARNG KIA total for the war, since they were considered active component individual fillers when they became casualties; ISTR the deployed Guard units suffered just under one hundred KIA during their period in country. Brooks Thanks, I didn't know that about the deployed intact units. Someone posted somewhere else that 5700 of the dead in Viet Nam were National Guard. That seems a bit high and probably refers to NG casualties. It would be easy enough to check because in those days your serial number was prefixed with NG and everyone knew where you came from when you had to deal with personnel. |
#48
|
|||
|
|||
From: Dweezil Dwarftosser
snip Horse****. If you were classified 1-A (physically fit and mentally competent) you would be drafted, period, at age 19 or upon completion of your four-year college deferment. (Ask me how I know. There was no draft lottery back then.) With a 1-A classification, most employers would not hire you - because you would definitely be gone in less than six months (and they'd be required by law to rehire you if you returned). There never was a 100% draft of 1-As. Just because you were 19 and 1-A didn't guarantee you would be drafted. I don't know what the percentages were, but I'd venture to say it was less than 50%. For every man I personally knew at the time that was drafted there were a few that weren't. Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired |
#49
|
|||
|
|||
B2431 wrote: From: Dweezil Dwarftosser snip Horse****. If you were classified 1-A (physically fit and mentally competent) you would be drafted, period, at age 19 or upon completion of your four-year college deferment. (Ask me how I know. There was no draft lottery back then.) With a 1-A classification, most employers would not hire you - because you would definitely be gone in less than six months (and they'd be required by law to rehire you if you returned). There never was a 100% draft of 1-As. Just because you were 19 and 1-A didn't guarantee you would be drafted. I don't know what the percentages were, but I'd venture to say it was less than 50%. For every man I personally knew at the time that was drafted there were a few that weren't. Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired The rate varied by locality and time period. When I faced the draft in 1968 it was essentially 100% for me. I actually heard someone ( no, not me ) commenting to a friend of mine how lucky my friend had been to get polio as a child and thus be safe from the draft. I knew years in advance I would have to go. I raised my hand on May 1, 1968. When I got back to school from that little trip, my notice to report for a draft physical was in my mail box. It was scheduled for the week before graduation. Bob McKellar, who is not whining or complaining, just explaining the times |
#50
|
|||
|
|||
Bob McKellar wrote:
B2431 wrote: From: Dweezil Dwarftosser snip Horse****. If you were classified 1-A (physically fit and mentally competent) you would be drafted, period, at age 19 or upon completion of your four-year college deferment. (Ask me how I know. There was no draft lottery back then.) With a 1-A classification, most employers would not hire you - because you would definitely be gone in less than six months (and they'd be required by law to rehire you if you returned). There never was a 100% draft of 1-As. Just because you were 19 and 1-A didn't guarantee you would be drafted. I don't know what the percentages were, but I'd venture to say it was less than 50%. For every man I personally knew at the time that was drafted there were a few that weren't. Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired The rate varied by locality and time period. When I faced the draft in 1968 it was essentially 100% for me. The local newspapers reported the "current draft age" every month; it was a very good indicator of the likely amount of time you had left. Through 1967, it was 19 years and 10 or 11 months in my area. All of a sudden, the draft levy increased dramatically after Tet, and the age dropped accordingly. I was 19 years and 7 mos. old when I received the notice - and had to report within ten days of it. My location: New York City, the Bronx. The draft was 100% of eligibles, oldest first. It had dropped from 25 in the early 60s (when it wasn't 100%) to 19 years and 6 months by March, 1968. All of the older eligibles had been exhausted. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Juan Jiminez is a liar and a fraud (was: Zoom fables on ANN | ChuckSlusarczyk | Home Built | 105 | October 8th 04 12:38 AM |
Bush's guard record | JDKAHN | Home Built | 13 | October 3rd 04 09:38 PM |
"W" is JFK's son and Bush revenge killed Kennedy in 1963 | Ross C. Bubba Nicholson | Aviation Marketplace | 0 | August 28th 04 11:30 AM |
"W" is JFK's son and Bush revenge killed Kennedy in 1963 | Ross C. Bubba Nicholson | Aerobatics | 0 | August 28th 04 11:28 AM |