Phantom flight

I remember (dimly) the TAC crew who ran spin tests in the F4 back
around 1967 and then went around briefing crews. They came down to
Homestead while I was going throught the F4 RTU. They described the
flat spin and how finally they both ejected and neither ejection did
anything to force the nose down enough to break the spin. They also
said if the tail surfaces were about 8 feet further back from the wing
recovery from a flat spin would have been possible. As for ejection
sensations - FWIW a Martin-Baker H7 ejection isn't punishing at all.
the only odd effect I noticed is that the powerful upward push and
acceleration pulls your eyelids. As soon as the telescoping catapult
tubes parted the powder gases dissipated, that hard push stopped and
the lanyard-fired rocket took over. You can see again and you can hear
the rocket hissing away. (Helmet soaks up the real noise) Looking down
you can see the airplane apparently dropping below you - way below you
- and the hole you just came out of. The rocket quits and you're still
going up, maybe 250 feet above the airplane now. Then there's an
audible click as the drogue chute deploys followed by a sudden yank as
it fills and the seat is yanked up to coast butt-first into the
airstream. (we were only at about 215 IAS at 1500 when I initiated the
ejection sequence). One startling thing for me was that apparently
something was awry, perhaps because ISTR I was slightly canted to one
side) and the seat started to spin rapidly around the longitudinal
axis. I remember thinking "If I have to go manual now this will be
difficult . . ." thinking about manual seat separation and ripcord
pulling. The spin was rapid enough to be quite disorienting. But then
the main chute deployed and I was yanked firmly from the seat. It was
all very cool from then on - I landed in blowdown and second growth
following a hurricane about a dozen years before and the landing was so
well cushioned my feet were about a foot above the ground when I
stopped.
Of course the early seats were punishers before a) pilots started
getting back injuries and b) the physiologists and the seat designers
got together and observed some design limitations inherent in homo sap,
like 15 G was too brutal and 8G was okay. One comment - from the time
I pulled the D-ring until the seat fired seemed about five full
seconds. It didn't fire immediately and I started to look down to make
sure I had the handle - dumb thought! but then my mind said "Don't look
down - you'll hurt your back!" so I stayed erect and then the seat
fired. This seemed to take about 5 seconds - according to the Dash One
it's just 0.54 seconds from pull to fire. Shows how adrenalin speeds
up thought in 'combat mode'.
Walt BJ

On 3/29/05 6:17 AM, in article , "John
Carrier" wrote:


I experienced the low altitude manifestation once and use the incident as an
illustration of the effects (big time overstress) of transonic pitch up for
my aero lecture.

R / John



John,

Even the Hornet does it. I've got a few "811's" (maintenance overstress
code) due to transonic pitch up. .95 to the merge and load on the G's, and
the FCS can't keep up (i.e. reduce the pitch rate fast enough) to keep the
g-meter from exceeding 7.5.

Worst I've ever seen was 8.4--still category 1 overstress only (low
limit--visual inspection only).

--Woody

wrote:

I remember (dimly) the TAC crew who ran spin tests in the F4 back
around 1967 and then went around briefing crews. They came down to
Homestead while I was going throught the F4 RTU. They described the
flat spin and how finally they both ejected and neither ejection did
anything to force the nose down enough to break the spin. They also
said if the tail surfaces were about 8 feet further back from the wing
recovery from a flat spin would have been possible. As for ejection
sensations - FWIW a Martin-Baker H7 ejection isn't punishing at all.
the only odd effect I noticed is that the powerful upward push and
acceleration pulls your eyelids. As soon as the telescoping catapult
tubes parted the powder gases dissipated, that hard push stopped and
the lanyard-fired rocket took over. You can see again and you can hear
the rocket hissing away. (Helmet soaks up the real noise) Looking down
you can see the airplane apparently dropping below you - way below you
- and the hole you just came out of. The rocket quits and you're still
going up, maybe 250 feet above the airplane now. Then there's an
audible click as the drogue chute deploys followed by a sudden yank as
it fills and the seat is yanked up to coast butt-first into the
airstream. (we were only at about 215 IAS at 1500 when I initiated the
ejection sequence). One startling thing for me was that apparently
something was awry, perhaps because ISTR I was slightly canted to one
side) and the seat started to spin rapidly around the longitudinal
axis. I remember thinking "If I have to go manual now this will be
difficult . . ." thinking about manual seat separation and ripcord
pulling. The spin was rapid enough to be quite disorienting. But then
the main chute deployed and I was yanked firmly from the seat. It was
all very cool from then on - I landed in blowdown and second growth
following a hurricane about a dozen years before and the landing was so
well cushioned my feet were about a foot above the ground when I
stopped.
Of course the early seats were punishers before a) pilots started
getting back injuries and b) the physiologists and the seat designers
got together and observed some design limitations inherent in homo sap,
like 15 G was too brutal and 8G was okay. One comment - from the time
I pulled the D-ring until the seat fired seemed about five full
seconds. It didn't fire immediately and I started to look down to make
sure I had the handle - dumb thought! but then my mind said "Don't look
down - you'll hurt your back!" so I stayed erect and then the seat
fired. This seemed to take about 5 seconds - according to the Dash One
it's just 0.54 seconds from pull to fire. Shows how adrenalin speeds
up thought in 'combat mode'.
Walt BJ

Damn!...very interesting...we need many more of these, told just
that way...a description that can be believed...you really should
write a book Walt, you have a knack of describing an event that
paints a vivid picture (and what's even better is totally
believable)
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" wrote in message
...
On 3/29/05 6:17 AM, in article , "John
Carrier" wrote:


I experienced the low altitude manifestation once and use the incident as
an
illustration of the effects (big time overstress) of transonic pitch up
for
my aero lecture.

R / John



John,

Even the Hornet does it. I've got a few "811's" (maintenance overstress
code) due to transonic pitch up. .95 to the merge and load on the G's,
and
the FCS can't keep up (i.e. reduce the pitch rate fast enough) to keep the
g-meter from exceeding 7.5.

Worst I've ever seen was 8.4--still category 1 overstress only (low
limit--visual inspection only).

Most A/C do it to some degree (even the lowly T-45 ... 1.04 on a good day,
downhill). Some are worse than others. The F-8 wasn't much of a problem.
At low altitude, the F-4 didn't give a hint and could be. Never ran into it
in the Turkey, but there were so many moving parts ....

R / John

Damn!...very interesting...we need many more of these, told just
that way...a description that can be believed...you really should
write a book Walt, you have a knack of describing an event that
paints a vivid picture (and what's even better is totally
believable)

Thanks Walt - and sign me up for my copy!

BTW - there is a good collection of ejection experiences at
www.ejectionsite.com


Damn!...very interesting...we need many more of these, told just
that way...a description that can be believed...you really should
write a book Walt, you have a knack of describing an event that
paints a vivid picture (and what's even better is totally
believable)
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

Bob wrote:
OK, you are strong. Stick force to get 9 Gs at 600 kts at 1000 ft was
over 50 pounds. Not many good reasons to be doing that in ACM since
the vertical was best for the F-4. The F-4 had a rare but
unrecoverable flat spin mode. In this mode we tried everything
including special anti-spin chutes and still never recovered one. Most
of these flat spins were entered from very nose high, slow speed high
yaw maneuvers, like trying to kick the nose down from a very high yo
with the rudders. Drag chutes, even anti-spin chutes just streamed
above you. very gentle spin rate and low altitude loss per turn but
just plain unrecoverable. We lost at least four F-4s at Pax learning
about this mode. MacD denied it even existed.


How about 8.5 g(the max for a clean F-4J) and corner, about 450 kts.

As for 'not many reasons', well ask Rookie Rab that when he saw Mig-17
tracers goin' over his canopy...

John Carrier wrote:



Perhaps the best way to communicate "go for it" is "Fly the ball." A little
nose up could scoop up an early wire, but of course a little too much could
ding a tail pipe and maybe even permanently damage the nozzle. By
comparison, the F-14 could REALLY troll for a wire. More than a few bolters
were saved by a bit of attitude in the wires ... certainly a varsity
correction.


I got way to used to 'nose up, add a little power, down DLC' over the ramp.

Never had a day time bolter, got a lot of early wires tho..
.

Back to the Phantom and using two hands for max G's. Figure of speech,
please forgive. Yes you could usually get max G with one hand.
Getting 9 G's (max) below ten grand at 600 kts took me both hands. But
I was a weak-assed pilot who was used to pulling an F-8 around with
half the effort. Agree, a savvy F-4 pilot could whip an F-8 everywhere
but prior to 1968 the number of ACM savvy F-4 pilots was low. Later
F-8's, like the F8J, were dogs and the F-4 guys routinely beat up on
them.


The J wasn't too bad with the P-420 engine (19,500 in A/B). We were never
"routinely beat up on" in it, though I tapped a couple of the better Phantom
drivers that WERE beating up on me. The J still couldn't match the D (never
got to fly it, but it was light, had the lighter nose and the P-20 engine).
The P-420 H was the hot rod.

R / John


We had a couple of guys who went through an entire cruise (100-120
traps) without a bolter in the F-4. I had two of my three F-4 cruises
bolterless, not all greenies but bolterless. Wire average probably
around two. Different strokes...........


... Not all greenies. I can relate. My first cruise, the air wing average
was 3.06 (I was an LSO until they found out my parents were married to each
other). Nowadays, it's around 3.5, almost exactly what CVW-19's top hook
(one of the best ball flyers I've EVER seen) had for the cruise. Another
trend is to the 1/2 ball high pass as "centered." There are several
generations of LSO's now that will grade you as LOBAW for a genuine rails
pass. A pity.

R / John

Bob wrote:
Getting 9 G's (max) below ten grand at 600 kts took me both hands. But
I was a weak-assed pilot snip excuse

You jet guys are all weak-assed pilots. Ever watch an E-2 in the break?
Snaps those 80' wingspan blades right to 90 degrees, vapes off the tips.
Let me tell you...while that happens out the outside, in the cockpit
you're steer wrestling.

You see, you basically have to unstrap from the seat, grab the yoke
under the right armpit with both hands holding the left horn, like
you're getting ready to toss down a baby heifer. At the numbers, you
bend forward at the waist and shift your grip to push up on the right
while pulling down on the left, which might require you to stick your
left boot against the side bubble to get decent leverage. Once you've
rolled, put the right boot on the instrument panel (don't bust any of
the steam guages) and haul back. If you can free up a hand, grab the
ditching handle and give your Null-P copilot a smack on the head to
remind him to throw in a bootful of rudder into the turn, else you end
up flying the ball sideways.

Now that's a break.

LOL...this might be the best description ever.