Seniors USA 2009 Start and Finish notes..... # 711 reporting

On Mar 18, 1:24*pm, wrote:

Also, an evil thought occurred to me - does Winscore check to see
whether you reset the logger altimeter between when you finish and
when you land? It strikes me you could finish really low then crank
the altimeter setting down 500 feet before you land. I'd guess someone
thought of that already and eliminated that opportunity for mischief.

9B

Um, huh? The only "setting" that you can do would be with regard to
what you're seeing presented to you in the various user-interfaces
(PDA, SN10, whatever). The secure logger records two altitudes
(pressure and GPS) independent of what you may be displaying. The
logged pressure is, as pointed out elsewhere, always referenced to the
same standard.

I think the confusion comes in whens someone goes into something like
Glide Navigator and fiddles with the altimeter setting. This has
zero impact on the data that is stored in the logger.

P3

On Mar 18, 12:06*pm, Mike the Strike wrote:
So, if I can summarize, the new start and finish rules result in the
following:

1) Your instruments may not show you the distance from the start to
the first turn.

Huh? Is there a _need_ to show this distance? Can't you see the
start cylinder on your moving map and make a mental note of the
distance to the next waypoint that you see flash up on the screen as
your little glider symbol crosses the cylinder edge? Or doesn't your
flight computer make a noise or pop up a note on the screen when you
exit the cylinder? I can get all of this with my PDA running XCSoar
(or SeeYou)...

And since you're now being given credit for the distance you fly (from
whatever point you exit the cylinder), things should actually be less-
hard... You no longer have to worry about being credit for distance
you didn't fly; or not getting credit for distance you _did_ fly (if
you exit out the back or something). So the strategy is simple: Fly
as fast and efficiently as you can (safely) from wherever you exit the
start cylinder until you make the first turnpoint. What's the
problem?

2) Your instruments may not indicate the location of the finish.

If you want to cut it down to a 1' margin, you are correct. Your
instruments may be off by 20 or 50 feet. How many times have you
landed at the end of the day and checked your altimeter? I bet it is
_not_ showing the same "field elevation" that you set when you took
off! It might be off by *gasp* 20 to 50 feet, or more!

I'm a computer professional by day - but flying is not a "digital"
realm. You make do and you leave a little bit of a margin, and you
live with it. What is the time cost for slowing down during the last
mile or two of your final glide... 5 to 10 seconds? OK, stretch that
out to 5 days of flying. You've now "lost" perhaps 30 - 45 seconds
(and you've guaranteed that you won't get a finishing penalty)...

How many of you experienced racers have lost a Regional or National
because of a cumulative 45 seconds or less over the _entire_ event?

Or to look at this another way: In the "olden days", how would you
determine whether you're inside the turnpoint radius (or within 1
degree of the sector edge) just by looking at a wing-tip photo? Can't
be accurate down to 1' or 1-degree there, either!


3) Although it's a race, you may have to slow down at the finish.

Yes, that's a bummer. But have you ever watched a NASCAR or Formula 1
race? Sure when they're all coming to the finish bunched up together
they push to the end - but when someone has a lead or they're coming
to the checkered flag one-at-a-time, they back off and ensure that
they make it safely across the finish.

As a newbie to the sport, would I *like* a chance to make a high speed
low pass as a part of the experience (OK, a few hundred feet off the
deck, for a modicum of safety)? Sure! But that's an ego/adrenaline
thing - it has nothing to do with determining who the best pilot is or
who wins the race. We can't survive a wreck or even a minor mishap
like the auto-racing folks can (I know, I used to race in NASCAR, the
SCCA, and a few other series), so sometimes we have to temper our
enthusiasm and back it off just enough to ensure that no more good
pilots die needlessly at the beginning or end of a contest flight.

--Noel
(Also a big fan of the OLC, for the record:
http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0...t=olc&pi=35474
)

On Mar 18, 1:42*pm, hretting wrote:
KIRK, If you go back a few replies, I close the vents to reduce noise.
At 130 kts and approaching the finish point, I don't want to miss an
important radio call. It was simply part of a pre-final glide cockpit
flow, and had nothing to do with all the altimeter/finish height
discussion.
Also, possibly crossing the finish 100' high by making a final glide
correction to the altimeter , as I have suggested will not have a
measurable impact on being a racing champion. Density altitude
increases as the day warms and 125' happens to be the normal , no TBs
at the field, everything okie dokie correction.
R

R,

I do the same, pretty much; my point was that we have managed to come
up with a finish procedure that may lead some people to spend too much
head down time fiddling in the cockpit at a time they should be heads
up! And I don't want to hear that "it's only a few points" - I've
lost first place in a contest by one (1) point before, so every little
bit can count, if you are serious about the sport (at least XX used to
think that way).

When all this was discussed last year, I suggested setting up a finish
"band" - say from 500' to 300' agl, where the points penalty would
pretty much equal the time saved by not climbing those extra feet
before starting the final glide. That way, there would be no
effective reason for not climbing high enough to get a nice safe 500'
finish, and if you finished 75' low (at 425', in the band), no big
deal, but no advantage either. You would have to have a pretty severe
penalty for finishing below the lower (300'agl) limit, and have the
scoring system average your last actual climbs, to avoit a "cheater"
circle in zero sink, but I think this approach - shoot for a 300'
window - might cut down on the end of glide worries.

Better yet, bring back the 50' line!

Cheers,

Kirk
66

On Mar 18, 1:45*pm, Peter Wyld wrote:
Are you sure? *My PDA is hooked to my IGC logger but gets only GPS
altitude, not the uncorrected pressure altitude that goes on the .igc
logfile and is used to score the finish (after correction for takeoff
pressure delta).

Kirk
66

What Software, What Logger ?

SeeYou Mobile on an Ipaq, logger is a Themi.

I don't bother with any airdata on the PDA, since I use it mainly as a
task map and landing option display.

My SN10 does all the airdata for me.

I prefer to keep them separate for redundancy, and prefer GPS altitude
for glides anyway!

Kirk

On Mar 18, 3:50*pm, "
wrote:
On Mar 18, 1:45*pm, Peter Wyld wrote:

Are you sure? *My PDA is hooked to my IGC logger but gets only GPS
altitude, not the uncorrected pressure altitude that goes on the .igc
logfile and is used to score the finish (after correction for takeoff
pressure delta).

Kirk
66

What Software, What Logger ?

SeeYou Mobile on an Ipaq, logger is a Themi.

I don't bother with any airdata on the PDA, since I use it mainly as a
task map and landing option display.

My SN10 does all the airdata for me.

I prefer to keep them separate for redundancy, and prefer GPS altitude
for glides anyway!

Kirk

And you don't have a choice with the Themi right? It does not output
pressure altitude NMEA data?

And would'nt it be nice if that SN10 output some of that airdata for
folks who do want to use a PDA. That way people can have flexibility
and the best of both worlds. A gripe of mine in rental gliders with
SN10s - but the easy solution is to pull out and toss away the SN10.

Darryl

The thing is Kirk is you didn't lose the contest by a single event,
but rather a culmination of many things. The finish problem is just
part of the Sea Trials necessary to usher in new safety-based rules.
Most of the frustrations will fall upon the Scorers and problem
solvers as they work the problems. Everyone will be hit with the same
challenges, and as in centering a thermal, you will have to figure out
how to work it to your advantage. I add 125'. Even though I prefer it,
the 50' line is a dying thermal.
As for slowing down before the finish, it was for 10 secs, not 1 to 2
miles. This is part of the on going research and will be ****-canned
before long. By slowing down you lose 3 secs. For a 2 hr sports class
contest day , that equates to 0.375pts. (7.5pts per min, or
7.5/60x3=0.375). Noel, are you keeping up? So, focus on the flying,
forget the finish and you'll be kicking butt.
Hey, did I get the math right? I ran out of toes.
R

On Mar 18, 6:16*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Mar 18, 3:50*pm, "
wrote:





On Mar 18, 1:45*pm, Peter Wyld wrote:

Are you sure? *My PDA is hooked to my IGC logger but gets only GPS
altitude, not the uncorrected pressure altitude that goes on the .igc
logfile and is used to score the finish (after correction for takeoff
pressure delta).

Kirk
66

What Software, What Logger ?

SeeYou Mobile on an Ipaq, logger is a Themi.

I don't bother with any airdata on the PDA, since I use it mainly as a
task map and landing option display.

My SN10 does all the airdata for me.

I prefer to keep them separate for redundancy, and prefer GPS altitude
for glides anyway!

Kirk

And you don't have a choice with the Themi right? It does not output
pressure altitude NMEA data?

And would'nt it be nice if that SN10 output some of that airdata for
folks who do want to use a PDA. That way people can have flexibility
and the best of both worlds. *A gripe of mine in rental gliders with
SN10s - but the easy solution is to pull out and toss away the SN10.

Darryl- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Actually, the SN10 does output the data, I just do not choose to use
it - I trust my SN10 WAY MORE than my PDA!

To each his own, if you are throwing away an SN10 please toss it my
way...

Kirk
66

On Mar 18, 1:34*pm, Papa3 wrote:
On Mar 18, 1:24*pm, wrote:



Also, an evil thought occurred to me - does Winscore check to see
whether you reset the logger altimeter between when you finish and
when you land? It strikes me you could finish really low then crank
the altimeter setting down 500 feet before you land. I'd guess someone
thought of that already and eliminated that opportunity for mischief.

9B

Um, *huh? * The only "setting" that you can do would be with regard to
what you're seeing presented to you in the various user-interfaces
(PDA, SN10, whatever). * *The secure logger records two altitudes
(pressure and GPS) independent of what you may be displaying. The
logged pressure is, as pointed out elsewhere, always referenced to the
same standard.

I think the confusion comes in whens someone goes into something like
Glide Navigator and fiddles with the altimeter setting. * * This has
zero impact on the data that is stored in the logger.

P3

That was my confusion - if Winscore is looking at uncorrected pressure
altitude then the QNH setting that affects what the pilot sees is
irrelevant. On the other hand if you start messing with that setting
in flight, you best have get it right or you will have no idea what
finish height to shoot for. From my perspective I'd rather not mess
with it. It's in the noise compared to other factors.

9B

On Mar 18, 5:52*pm, "
wrote:
On Mar 18, 6:16*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:



On Mar 18, 3:50*pm, "
wrote:

On Mar 18, 1:45*pm, Peter Wyld wrote:

Are you sure? *My PDA is hooked to my IGC logger but gets only GPS
altitude, not the uncorrected pressure altitude that goes on the .igc
logfile and is used to score the finish (after correction for takeoff
pressure delta).

Kirk
66

What Software, What Logger ?

SeeYou Mobile on an Ipaq, logger is a Themi.

I don't bother with any airdata on the PDA, since I use it mainly as a
task map and landing option display.

My SN10 does all the airdata for me.

I prefer to keep them separate for redundancy, and prefer GPS altitude
for glides anyway!

Kirk

And you don't have a choice with the Themi right? It does not output
pressure altitude NMEA data?

And would'nt it be nice if that SN10 output some of that airdata for
folks who do want to use a PDA. That way people can have flexibility
and the best of both worlds. *A gripe of mine in rental gliders with
SN10s - but the easy solution is to pull out and toss away the SN10.

Darryl- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Actually, the SN10 does output the data, I just do not choose to use
it - I trust my SN10 WAY MORE than my PDA!

To each his own, if you are throwing away an SN10 please toss it my
way...

Kirk
66

Sorry my bad. Yes, and it is documented on Dave's web site. I was
getting confused, my frustration is that the SN-10 does not output TAS
data so that PDA software cannot independently calculate the best wind
vector possible (esp. non circling). An easy way to allow existing
software to work would be to output TAS just like a C302.

Darryl

Noel, some comments:

2) Your instruments may not indicate the location of the finish.

If you want to cut it down to a 1' margin, you are correct. *Your
instruments may be off by 20 or 50 feet. *How many times have you
landed at the end of the day and checked your altimeter? *I bet it is
_not_ showing the same "field elevation" that you set when you took
off! *It might be off by *gasp* *20 to 50 feet, or more!

I'm a computer professional by day - but flying is not a "digital"
realm. *You make do and you leave a little bit of a margin, and you
live with it. *What is the time cost for slowing down during the last
mile or two of your final glide... 5 to 10 seconds? *OK, stretch that
out to 5 days of flying. *You've now "lost" perhaps 30 - 45 seconds
(and you've guaranteed that you won't get a finishing penalty)...

How many of you experienced racers have lost a Regional or National
because of a cumulative 45 seconds or less over the _entire_ event?


If you haven't already, may I suggest you read Moffat's Winning on the
Wind (original or revised); he has a great chapter on how to win by
minimizing lost seconds here and there. And yes, it is very easy to
lose by 45 seconds, over the whole race! Bottom line, every second
counts, and giving some away just because we have rules that specify a
vague finish location is a poor way to run a contest, IMHO.


3) Although it's a race, you may have to slow down at the finish.

Yes, that's a bummer. *But have you ever watched a NASCAR or Formula 1
race? *Sure when they're all coming to the finish bunched up together
they push to the end - but when someone has a lead or they're coming
to the checkered flag one-at-a-time, they back off and ensure that
they make it safely across the finish.

But in NASCAR or F1 you can see what your place is, in real time. In
a glider contest (unless using Grand Prix rules) you have only a vague
idea if you are doing overall, and really no idea if you are beating
the glider next to you at the finish. So you really can't "just back
off and make it safely across the finish". The tradeoff is that you
can't finish too low and get a penalty, so you have to balance finish
speed with altitude and try for the best compromise. In a perfect
world, with a perfect computer, you would leave your last thermal at
exactly the height necessary to fly your final glide at the correct
speed for the Mc setting to arrive at the very bottom of the finish
circle (501'), compensated for the difference in pressure altitude
between takeoff and landing, etc... Not quite as easy to visualize as
crossing a finish line at 50', like in the good old days!!!



As a newbie to the sport, would I *like* a chance to make a high speed
low pass as a part of the experience (OK, a few hundred feet off the
deck, for a modicum of safety)? *Sure! *But that's an ego/adrenaline
thing - it has nothing to do with determining who the best pilot is or
who wins the race. *We can't survive a wreck or even a minor mishap
like the auto-racing folks can (I know, I used to race in NASCAR, the
SCCA, and a few other series), so sometimes we have to temper our
enthusiasm and back it off just enough to ensure that no more good
pilots die needlessly at the beginning or end of a contest flight.


What we forget is what was lost when gate starts and line finishes
were done away with: the sense of participation for our crew and
friends, who used to work those essential features of the races.

I don't have hard numbers, but I bet the attendance at contests by
crew has dropped over 50% since the bad old days - it has in my
experience in local contests in AZ.

Bit of a shame, that.

Kirk

Anyone for a Retro race? 3000' Start Gate ("Ready...Mark, good
start!"), assigned speed tasks only, have to fly around the turnpoint
throught a photosector, and a 50 finish line? And no whining?