Houston JS1c crash ONLY (not in any way about a Puchaczs, or anything else!)

On Wednesday, May 13, 2015 at 10:46:43 PM UTC+1, Sean Fidler wrote:
Jim,

I chose to by the 29. It was primarily an ease of use issue. I will buy a new glider soon. It's probably a wait and see how the Ventus 3 performs, availability, etc. Another huge question is 21/18 or 18/15. Another is jet? I would also suggest looking at the 18 meter HPH Shark.

Sean

Hi Sean - ease of use issue? Can you expand? Ventus 3 - yes - it would be interesting if SH are creating a direct competitor (18/21) with it. Does anyone know when details of it will be released?

Jim,

Ease of use (poor word choice perhaps) means: The glider I purchased was already in my possession in Michigan (care of a very good friend). I had been flying it off and on for a year or two before purchasing. I was very comfortable and fairly competitive in it (the 29 is arguably the best current 18m glider if World Championship results are considered). The glider was ready to go, here, etc. All I had to do is write the check. This particular glider is also perhaps among the lightest 29s around (considerably lighter than most other 29s). Finally, the 29 is a very easy glider to rig, fly and manage. Parts are readily available as is knowledge from the community. The "speeds and feeds" are well known. This broad community of US 29 owners was a huge reason I ultimately chose to buy the used 29. It is a truly wonderful sailplane to fly and clearly is widely accepted to have exceptional performance in all conditions and wing-loadings. The ASG-29 is "practically" an open class glider in 18m.

That said, I did strongly consider the JS-1 (I had paperwork in hand and was close to signing) and Lak17b FES. The reason that I did not do the JS-1 is, ironically, the 18/21 meter offering. 21m is also one of the greatest strengths of the JS-1. I love the idea of 21 meter performance (60:1) and the very high achievable wingloadings. I just could not decide how much I would actually use the 21 meter. There are almost no open gliders in Michigan and they are flown even less. The Open class is small in the US right now and only 2 contests each year are held for Open (Perry and Nationals). The simple fact is that 18m is plenty of performance. And, in the USA, the 15m class is still very strong, competitive and dense with top pilots.

As for the Lak17b, I still believe that it is a really outstanding option. The Lak team is highly innovative and forward thinking. They were the first adopter of FES. FES is (without question) the safest, simplist and most reliable sustainer system of the market. I remain very disappointed that the U.S. Handicap committee has failed to adjust the Lak17b handicap to account for the drag of the FES system and not just "LOWER" the handicap due to the increased weight of the batteries. This irritates me to no end. I find the situation to be lazy and irresponsible (and plain wrong). Now that Schliecher and Schemp Hiirth gliders are starting to deliver FES equipped gliders I can only hope more serious attention be given to this issue. It has been nearly 2 years since I brought this up (still nothing has changed I believe). Sorry for the rant, back to the Lak17b. The Lak17b also has 15m tips! So you can have a 15m, 18m, Open (21m) and FES glider all in one (and a 13.5 I believe!!!). That is amazing versatility and all bases could perhaps be covered with this one glider (and a nice hangar to store all these wing extensions!). As I owned a Lak17a (my first glider), I was already impressed with the rigging ease and quality (something I miss on occasion as I continue to learn the 29). The Lak17a was a dream to fly although the rudder was small (this has been addressed with the B model). I also suspect the performance of the 17b is highly underestimated (as the 17a was).

At the end of the day we have 7 very competitive 18 meter gliders on the market right now.

1) ASG-29 - the gold standard, 15/18 only, confident resale, community, proven, available within a year new

2) JS-1 EVO - innovative, focused on 18, proven performance in both 18 and Open but not noticeably better than the 29 in 18, Jet has been pretty much perfected, under a year delivery. also, the lack of a 15m option is difficult for many hard core contest pilots to "let go."

3) VENTUS 3 - it is very hard to ignore the potential and hype (claims of 55:1, etc), get in line!...it's going to be awhile (2-4 years potentially), not proven (hype at this point, to me it must win 2 world championships in a row before its proven to be the best), there will almost certainly be bugs to work out early in the production, SH gross "weight" concerns, fuselage size ?s (supposedly the V3 will offer only 2 size options vs 3, something between an A/B ("sport")and another between a B/C). I suspect the SH chose to go with 15/18 vs 18/21 for the V3 is because the window of predicted higher performance with a 21 meter wing was just to narrow. If the V3 delivers the performance that is being "whispered" (55:1, ultra flat polar via thinner airfoils, etc) it will essentially be a highly competitive open class glider with 18m wings. That would be great because carrying 21/18 tips in a normal trailer is a PITA.

4) ASG-31 - very, very good performance, Schleicher refined, highly reliable self launch capability (unique in the 18 meter class other than than the Antares, great all around glider, surprisingly competitive in both 18/Open.

5) LAK17b(FES) - highly underestimated, offers 15/18/21 and even 13.5, FES experienced (first to introduce the technology to a production glider), easy to rig. But the LAK17b has not had great competition results, the company itself may be more vulnerable (recent ownership change), few (20 perhaps?) have been built and even fewer are in North America although those who have seem extremely happy.

6) HPH 304s - extremely well built, great performance, reliable Jet sustainer, self launch option, good U.S. Dealer who is now campaigning the glider in competition I believe.

7) Antares 18/20 Electric Self Launch - company is so goofy now that it really should not be on this list....but....the glider itself is unreal IF you are prepared to maintain it properly. An amazing used Anteres is currently on Wings and Wheels for around 170k!

I honestly think all of these gliders would be good choices. I truly do. I think they all are competitive with a good pilot. It just comes down to some slight variances in personal preference and budget. Another big factor is company stability and dealer service. Hardcore racers will continue to lean towards the ASG-29 for awhile (a safe choice, here now, by far the most affordable on average, absolutely proven performance in all conditions) or the JS-1 (if 18/Open is key or Jet sustainer is key). The Ventus 3 is very exciting. I suspect a "tiny bit" overhyped ;-). We shall see. Regardless, it will be sold in force (many deposits, etc) and clearly we will have plenty of data on its actual competition performance within 2 years. Remember, the JS-1 was supposed to crush the 29 too. Apparently that task is slightly more difficult than it looks.

The ASG-31 is the "best overall 18m glider" in my opinion because it's a highly reliable self launch with 18/21 options. It's also quite expensive and generally considered touch too heavy in 18m when it's weak. That said, possessing the abilitity to fly almost anywhere you want, at almost anytime you want is truly extraordinary! If competition was less of a focus for me, this would be my choice.

The LAK17b and Shark 304s are also excellent as well although "understated" in their marketing situations (Lak especially in the USA). The FES option on the Lak and its "Swiss Army" tip choices on the price list are very compelling. Essentially 3 or even 4 gliders in one! The Shark is very refined, very high build quality and also has a proven self launch system like the ASG-31 but only with 18m. It seems to be selling very well too.

I bought the ASG-29 and will sit on the fence for a couple years and see how I develop as a pilot and how the market develops.

I hope that helps! It burned up 15 minutes waiting for the plane this morning!

On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 3:27:35 PM UTC+1, Sean Fidler wrote:
Jim,

Ease of use (poor word choice perhaps) means: The glider I purchased was already in my possession in Michigan (care of a very good friend). I had been flying it off and on for a year or two before purchasing. I was very comfortable and fairly competitive in it (the 29 is arguably the best current 18m glider if World Championship results are considered). The glider was ready to go, here, etc. All I had to do is write the check. This particular glider is also perhaps among the lightest 29s around (considerably lighter than most other 29s). Finally, the 29 is a very easy glider to rig, fly and manage. Parts are readily available as is knowledge from the community. The "speeds and feeds" are well known. This broad community of US 29 owners was a huge reason I ultimately chose to buy the used 29. It is a truly wonderful sailplane to fly and clearly is widely accepted to have exceptional performance in all conditions and wing-loadings. The ASG-29 is "practically" an open class glider in 18m.

That said, I did strongly consider the JS-1 (I had paperwork in hand and was close to signing) and Lak17b FES. The reason that I did not do the JS-1 is, ironically, the 18/21 meter offering. 21m is also one of the greatest strengths of the JS-1. I love the idea of 21 meter performance (60:1) and the very high achievable wingloadings. I just could not decide how much I would actually use the 21 meter. There are almost no open gliders in Michigan and they are flown even less. The Open class is small in the US right now and only 2 contests each year are held for Open (Perry and Nationals).. The simple fact is that 18m is plenty of performance. And, in the USA, the 15m class is still very strong, competitive and dense with top pilots.

As for the Lak17b, I still believe that it is a really outstanding option.. The Lak team is highly innovative and forward thinking. They were the first adopter of FES. FES is (without question) the safest, simplist and most reliable sustainer system of the market. I remain very disappointed that the U.S. Handicap committee has failed to adjust the Lak17b handicap to account for the drag of the FES system and not just "LOWER" the handicap due to the increased weight of the batteries. This irritates me to no end. I find the situation to be lazy and irresponsible (and plain wrong). Now that Schliecher and Schemp Hiirth gliders are starting to deliver FES equipped gliders I can only hope more serious attention be given to this issue. It has been nearly 2 years since I brought this up (still nothing has changed I believe). Sorry for the rant, back to the Lak17b. The Lak17b also has 15m tips! So you can have a 15m, 18m, Open (21m) and FES glider all in one (and a 13.5 I believe!!!). That is amazing versatility and all bases could perhaps be covered with this one glider (and a nice hangar to store all these wing extensions!). As I owned a Lak17a (my first glider), I was already impressed with the rigging ease and quality (something I miss on occasion as I continue to learn the 29). The Lak17a was a dream to fly although the rudder was small (this has been addressed with the B model). I also suspect the performance of the 17b is highly underestimated (as the 17a was)..

At the end of the day we have 7 very competitive 18 meter gliders on the market right now.

1) ASG-29 - the gold standard, 15/18 only, confident resale, community, proven, available within a year new

2) JS-1 EVO - innovative, focused on 18, proven performance in both 18 and Open but not noticeably better than the 29 in 18, Jet has been pretty much perfected, under a year delivery. also, the lack of a 15m option is difficult for many hard core contest pilots to "let go."

3) VENTUS 3 - it is very hard to ignore the potential and hype (claims of 55:1, etc), get in line!...it's going to be awhile (2-4 years potentially), not proven (hype at this point, to me it must win 2 world championships in a row before its proven to be the best), there will almost certainly be bugs to work out early in the production, SH gross "weight" concerns, fuselage size ?s (supposedly the V3 will offer only 2 size options vs 3, something between an A/B ("sport")and another between a B/C). I suspect the SH chose to go with 15/18 vs 18/21 for the V3 is because the window of predicted higher performance with a 21 meter wing was just to narrow. If the V3 delivers the performance that is being "whispered" (55:1, ultra flat polar via thinner airfoils, etc) it will essentially be a highly competitive open class glider with 18m wings. That would be great because carrying 21/18 tips in a normal trailer is a PITA.

4) ASG-31 - very, very good performance, Schleicher refined, highly reliable self launch capability (unique in the 18 meter class other than than the Antares, great all around glider, surprisingly competitive in both 18/Open.

The FES option for Schleicher gliders is news!

There was no mention of it at Aero a few weeks ago

(Sorry for drifting off topic)

KN

At 14:27 14 May 2015, Sean Fidler wrote:
As for the Lak17b, I still believe that it is a really outstanding
option.
=
Now
that=
Schliecher and Schemp Hiirth gliders are starting to deliver FES
equipped
=
gliders I can only hope more serious attention be given to this issue.
It
=
has been nearly 2 years since I brought this up (still nothing has
changed
=
I believe). Sorry for the rant, back to the Lak17b. The Lak17b also has
1=
5m tips! So you can have a 15m, 18m, Open (21m) and FES glider all in
one
=
(and a 13.5 I believe!!!).

On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 10:12:56 AM UTC-5, Jim Pengelly wrote:
On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 3:27:35 PM UTC+1, Sean Fidler wrote:
Jim,

Ease of use (poor word choice perhaps) means: The glider I purchased was already in my possession in Michigan (care of a very good friend). I had been flying it off and on for a year or two before purchasing. I was very comfortable and fairly competitive in it (the 29 is arguably the best current 18m glider if World Championship results are considered). The glider was ready to go, here, etc. All I had to do is write the check. This particular glider is also perhaps among the lightest 29s around (considerably lighter than most other 29s). Finally, the 29 is a very easy glider to rig, fly and manage. Parts are readily available as is knowledge from the community. The "speeds and feeds" are well known. This broad community of US 29 owners was a huge reason I ultimately chose to buy the used 29. It is a truly wonderful sailplane to fly and clearly is widely accepted to have exceptional performance in all conditions and wing-loadings. The ASG-29 is "practically" an open class glider in 18m.

That said, I did strongly consider the JS-1 (I had paperwork in hand and was close to signing) and Lak17b FES. The reason that I did not do the JS-1 is, ironically, the 18/21 meter offering. 21m is also one of the greatest strengths of the JS-1. I love the idea of 21 meter performance (60:1) and the very high achievable wingloadings. I just could not decide how much I would actually use the 21 meter. There are almost no open gliders in Michigan and they are flown even less. The Open class is small in the US right now and only 2 contests each year are held for Open (Perry and Nationals). The simple fact is that 18m is plenty of performance. And, in the USA, the 15m class is still very strong, competitive and dense with top pilots..

As for the Lak17b, I still believe that it is a really outstanding option. The Lak team is highly innovative and forward thinking. They were the first adopter of FES. FES is (without question) the safest, simplist and most reliable sustainer system of the market. I remain very disappointed that the U.S. Handicap committee has failed to adjust the Lak17b handicap to account for the drag of the FES system and not just "LOWER" the handicap due to the increased weight of the batteries. This irritates me to no end. I find the situation to be lazy and irresponsible (and plain wrong). Now that Schliecher and Schemp Hiirth gliders are starting to deliver FES equipped gliders I can only hope more serious attention be given to this issue. It has been nearly 2 years since I brought this up (still nothing has changed I believe). Sorry for the rant, back to the Lak17b. The Lak17b also has 15m tips! So you can have a 15m, 18m, Open (21m) and FES glider all in one (and a 13.5 I believe!!!). That is amazing versatility and all bases could perhaps be covered with this one glider (and a nice hangar to store all these wing extensions!). As I owned a Lak17a (my first glider), I was already impressed with the rigging ease and quality (something I miss on occasion as I continue to learn the 29). The Lak17a was a dream to fly although the rudder was small (this has been addressed with the B model). I also suspect the performance of the 17b is highly underestimated (as the 17a was).

At the end of the day we have 7 very competitive 18 meter gliders on the market right now.

1) ASG-29 - the gold standard, 15/18 only, confident resale, community, proven, available within a year new

2) JS-1 EVO - innovative, focused on 18, proven performance in both 18 and Open but not noticeably better than the 29 in 18, Jet has been pretty much perfected, under a year delivery. also, the lack of a 15m option is difficult for many hard core contest pilots to "let go."

3) VENTUS 3 - it is very hard to ignore the potential and hype (claims of 55:1, etc), get in line!...it's going to be awhile (2-4 years potentially), not proven (hype at this point, to me it must win 2 world championships in a row before its proven to be the best), there will almost certainly be bugs to work out early in the production, SH gross "weight" concerns, fuselage size ?s (supposedly the V3 will offer only 2 size options vs 3, something between an A/B ("sport")and another between a B/C). I suspect the SH chose to go with 15/18 vs 18/21 for the V3 is because the window of predicted higher performance with a 21 meter wing was just to narrow. If the V3 delivers the performance that is being "whispered" (55:1, ultra flat polar via thinner airfoils, etc) it will essentially be a highly competitive open class glider with 18m wings. That would be great because carrying 21/18 tips in a normal trailer is a PITA.

4) ASG-31 - very, very good performance, Schleicher refined, highly reliable self launch capability (unique in the 18 meter class other than than the Antares, great all around glider, surprisingly competitive in both 18/Open.

5) LAK17b(FES) - highly underestimated, offers 15/18/21 and even 13.5, FES experienced (first to introduce the technology to a production glider), easy to rig. But the LAK17b has not had great competition results, the company itself may be more vulnerable (recent ownership change), few (20 perhaps?) have been built and even fewer are in North America although those who have seem extremely happy.

6) HPH 304s - extremely well built, great performance, reliable Jet sustainer, self launch option, good U.S. Dealer who is now campaigning the glider in competition I believe.

7) Antares 18/20 Electric Self Launch - company is so goofy now that it really should not be on this list....but....the glider itself is unreal IF you are prepared to maintain it properly. An amazing used Anteres is currently on Wings and Wheels for around 170k!

I honestly think all of these gliders would be good choices. I truly do. I think they all are competitive with a good pilot. It just comes down to some slight variances in personal preference and budget. Another big factor is company stability and dealer service. Hardcore racers will continue to lean towards the ASG-29 for awhile (a safe choice, here now, by far the most affordable on average, absolutely proven performance in all conditions) or the JS-1 (if 18/Open is key or Jet sustainer is key). The Ventus 3 is very exciting. I suspect a "tiny bit" overhyped ;-). We shall see. Regardless, it will be sold in force (many deposits, etc) and clearly we will have plenty of data on its actual competition performance within 2 years. Remember, the JS-1 was supposed to crush the 29 too. Apparently that task is slightly more difficult than it looks.

The ASG-31 is the "best overall 18m glider" in my opinion because it's a highly reliable self launch with 18/21 options. It's also quite expensive and generally considered touch too heavy in 18m when it's weak. That said, possessing the abilitity to fly almost anywhere you want, at almost anytime you want is truly extraordinary! If competition was less of a focus for me, this would be my choice.

The LAK17b and Shark 304s are also excellent as well although "understated" in their marketing situations (Lak especially in the USA). The FES option on the Lak and its "Swiss Army" tip choices on the price list are very compelling. Essentially 3 or even 4 gliders in one! The Shark is very refined, very high build quality and also has a proven self launch system like the ASG-31 but only with 18m. It seems to be selling very well too.

I bought the ASG-29 and will sit on the fence for a couple years and see how I develop as a pilot and how the market develops.

I hope that helps! It burned up 15 minutes waiting for the plane this morning!

Sean - you're a legend. That's such an informative reply and has given me great food for thought. The stand out sounds like the Ventus 3 if the hype is to be believed. Jet sustainer version might be an incredible option. Possible long waiting list and teething trouble with early machines are the only downsides. Frustratingly what I'm hearing is 'might be best to hold off' rather than invest in a JS1 Damn it! I'm a recreational pilot but I do compete a bit and I'd like to do much more in future, so whilst I'm not looking explicitly for an out and out racer, if I do upgrade (from Discus bT) I do want something that will perform at the highest level so that if I do improve and get into racing seriously then I don't need to upgrade again, if that makes sense.

Jim, if you wait for the Ventus 3, by the time it shows up there WILL be something that it 'might be best to hold off' for. In the meantime you'll have lost 3 or 4 years of flying at a higher level.

Kevin,
I believe you are correct that the FES is not available at Schleicher. Today it is available for the: LAK-17b, SH Discus 2cxa, the new Discus 3, the HPH 304S, Silent 2 Electro and Albastar has an FES on a 13.5 meter glider.
Thx - Renny
(LAK-17b FES Owner)


On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 10:15:06 AM UTC-6, Kevin Neave wrote:
The FES option for Schleicher gliders is news!

There was no mention of it at Aero a few weeks ago

(Sorry for drifting off topic)

KN

At 14:27 14 May 2015, Sean Fidler wrote:
As for the Lak17b, I still believe that it is a really outstanding
option.
=
Now
that=
Schliecher and Schemp Hiirth gliders are starting to deliver FES
equipped
=
gliders I can only hope more serious attention be given to this issue.
It
=
has been nearly 2 years since I brought this up (still nothing has
changed
=
I believe). Sorry for the rant, back to the Lak17b. The Lak17b also has
1=
5m tips! So you can have a 15m, 18m, Open (21m) and FES glider all in
one
=
(and a 13.5 I believe!!!).

3) VENTUS 3 - it is very hard to ignore the potential and hype (claims of 55:1, etc), get in line!...it's going to be awhile (2-4 years potentially), not proven (hype at this point, to me it must win 2 world championships in a row before its proven to be the best), there will almost certainly be bugs to work out early in the production, SH gross "weight" concerns, fuselage size ?s (supposedly the V3 will offer only 2 size options vs 3, something between an A/B ("sport")and another between a B/C). I suspect the SH chose to go with 15/18 vs 18/21 for the V3 is because the window of predicted higher performance with a 21 meter wing was just to narrow. If the V3 delivers the performance that is being "whispered" (55:1, ultra flat polar via thinner airfoils, etc) it will essentially be a highly competitive open class glider with 18m wings. That would be great because carrying 21/18 tips in a normal trailer is a PITA.

I was unaware that SH offered 3 fuselage options. SH has produced several "C" versions of gliders, but these are 15/18m options that come in varieties like Ca and Cb. One would therefore be wise not to purchase a "C" model glider expecting a cockpit that can fit a 6'5" pilot without further due diligence. It also points out that one should be skeptical about advise offered in these forums by relative newcomers who don't have first hand experience with the subject.

Dear Bruce:

The Quintus is NOT alive and well, if it was I would have one on order! The reason the Quintus is not alive is part of the reason I would not buy a JS-1. While I think the JS-1 is absolutely beautiful, I know it goes like stink and it has plenty of original thought, just like the aircraft from Lange Aviation. However, with only one model and not a lot of experience, i.e.. years an years, of building gliders, I am happy to let others put their money into the new manufacturers, I will stay with the "Older Boys', Schleicher and Schempp. The JS-1 had poorly design rudder cable fixtures, leading to a crash, what else is not as it should be?

On another note, those claiming a 55/1 L/D on the new V3, this is from a company that says it will no longer publish polars? Schempp has a long history of building winners, and I am sure the new ventus will be another one, however it has not even flown. To get 55 L/D would be a very large advance in technology. If you order a new ventus you will be waiting at least several years and in truth we do not know how well it flies. What if it is only as good as an ASG-29?

What I have heard is the old "A" (suitable for very, very small frames) will be slightly larger and renamed something like "Sport" and the old B will also be changed larger. This sounds like a smart move to me as very few of the current pilots could possibly fit (let alone be comfortable) in the A. As far as the C fuselage (or D, E and F, etc), lighten up "Francis." It's all for fun and trying to help answer a guy's question. If you have something to offer or can do a better job, please go ahead and state it.

I have never flown a SH glider but I do have 2 owners of V2cxm's in my hangar in MI. I think I know a thing or two about the gliders, their quality and their performance. Excellent on all counts.

Kevin,
You are correct that the FES is not offered by Schleicher. The FES is currently offered on the following gliders:
- LAK-17b FES
- SH Ventus 2cxa
- SH Ventus 3
- SH Discus 2c
- HPH 304S
- Silent 2 Electro
- Albastar also has a 13.5m glider with FES, but I believe they are not in production.

Thx - Renny
(LAK-17b FES owner)


On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 10:15:06 AM UTC-6, Kevin Neave wrote:
The FES option for Schleicher gliders is news!

There was no mention of it at Aero a few weeks ago

(Sorry for drifting off topic)

KN

At 14:27 14 May 2015, Sean Fidler wrote:
As for the Lak17b, I still believe that it is a really outstanding
option.
=
Now
that=
Schliecher and Schemp Hiirth gliders are starting to deliver FES
equipped
=
gliders I can only hope more serious attention be given to this issue.
It
=
has been nearly 2 years since I brought this up (still nothing has
changed
=
I believe). Sorry for the rant, back to the Lak17b. The Lak17b also has
1=
5m tips! So you can have a 15m, 18m, Open (21m) and FES glider all in
one
=
(and a 13.5 I believe!!!).