towing a sailplane trailer / vehicle

On Oct 31, 10:22*am, Burt Compton - Marfa wrote:
On Oct 30, 1:33*pm, Craig wrote:



On Oct 30, 7:19*am, Bob wrote:

I have a question, are glider trailers rated to tow above 60MPH. In
Europe where most of the trailers are made (I think) the max speed for
a trailer is 60mph /100kph. Just wondering as I see all kinds of
clames that people are towing faster than this. Would this be an
insurance problem if you had an accident and were going faster than
the trailer is rated? Just wondering.

Bob (waiting for the wave)

Not sure about the insurance thing, but the 100 kph tow speed limit
does explain why most in Europe profess their trailers tow just fine.
I tow a larger Komet trailer with a 3.0L Toyota Sienna and all is well
up to 65mph (105 kph). At 70 it's managable, but requires attention.
At 75 (120 kph) it's a real handful. I guess we're a bit spoiled, but
covering long distances at 60 mph is tedious at best & I'm awfully
tempted to modify my trailer to tow better at higher speeds.

Craig

What's the hurry? *I tow my glider trailers (DG-1000 in a Cobra /
ASK-13 in a Swan / Cirrus in an Eberle trailer) long distances to/from
Marfa, west Texas (USA) at no more than 60 mph behind my 2001 Ford Van
(6 cylinder). *Why risk damaging a glider by driving at higher
speeds? *At slower speeds you can maneuver around potholes, junk in
the road, wayward critters, or manage a blowout better. *I've been
towing glider trailers at 60 mph across the USA for decades. No
problems, yet.

The Germans must know something if they limit glider trailers to 100
km/h (62 mph), while also driving their well-tuned cars without
trailers much faster on their Autobahns.

So put in a long day and get there with a lot less stress and fatigue
on glider, driver and tow vehicle. *I find that driving off the US
Interstates the "blue" roads are often smoother, less traffic passing
you and the scenery is great, with small-town diners, tractors in
fields, cool junkyards, vintage "motorcourt" motels -- classic
Americana! * *Listen to audiobooks and your favorite CD's if you find
60 mph "tedious".

I also get a bit better gas mileage for my Ford van as the glider
trailer creates an aerodynamically favorable "after body" behind the
big van.

Start early, slow down, save gas, enjoy the trip, keep our trailer /
gilder insurance premiums from being raised because of highway
accidents due to "get-there-i-tis".

Burt -- *just easin' on down the road . . .

Good advice, Burt.

If you plot fuel consumption vs. speed (MPG vs. MPH) you get a curve
that looks like a sailplane polar. Pretty much regardless of the
vehicle, the peak MPH is around 45 MPH. It drops off very sharply
below 45 and somewhat more slowly above 45. If you have an automatic
transmission with a locking torque converter, best MPG is just above
the speed where the TC locks up - approximately 43 MPH.

61 MPH (100 KPH) is a reasonable compromise between speed and economy.

What Frank says about the western US is correct. The steep 7% grades
on Interstate 15 between Las Vegas and Barstow are in Death Valley
where 130F (54C) temperatures are not uncommon. Pulling a trailer up
the Baker Grade has doomed many small cars. Imagine what the under-
hood temperatures are. If you break down and aren't rescued quickly,
your survival may depend on how much water you have.

I tried towing a 1-26 on open trailer along that route with a '59
Volvo PV-544. The little 1800cc sedan was great in the cool coastal
climate but in the desert it was a deathtrap. It only took once to
learn my lesson. My next car had a V8 and air conditioning.

delboy wrote:
Not all of the UK is flat and our annual trip from Lasham in Southern
England to Aboyne in Scotland is 540 miles (860 k) over some quite
steep climbs. A number of hilltop sites involve an approach via a
really steep incline, e.g 1 in 3.5 to get to the Long Mynd. My 1.6
litre turbo diesel Citroen Estate pulled a K21 in a Cobra trailer up
that without any difficulty. We do get 30C sometimes in the summer.

To get good towing stability:

1) Make sure that have about 40 lbs of nose weight.

2) Make sure that the trailer tyres are correctly inflated, and
increase the rear tyre pressures of the towing vehicle by 5 psi.

3) Fit a stabiliser bar.
Please describe a stabiliser bar. In the USA, there are several types.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* Sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Oct 31, 8:19*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
delboy wrote:
Not all of the UK is flat and our annual trip from Lasham in Southern
England to Aboyne in Scotland is 540 miles (860 k) over some quite
steep climbs. A number of hilltop sites involve an approach via a
really steep incline, e.g 1 in 3.5 to get to the Long Mynd. My 1.6
litre turbo diesel Citroen Estate pulled a K21 in a Cobra trailer up
that without any difficulty. We do get 30C sometimes in the summer.

To get good towing stability:

1) Make sure that have about 40 lbs of nose weight.

2) Make sure that the trailer tyres are correctly inflated, and
increase the rear tyre pressures of the towing vehicle by 5 psi.

3) Fit a stabiliser bar.

Please describe a stabiliser bar. In the USA, there are several types.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* "Transponders in Sailplanes"http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* ** Sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org

Probably better described as an anti-sway bar. I couldn't find a web
site for the type I had.

Most involved some kind of friction or dampening.

This image link shows the basic design principle.

http://www.title-3.com/images/SwayBar.jpg

Frank Whiteley

Two of the three towing vehicles you mention below are rear wheel
drive. Unless you own a BMW or a Porche or a permanent AWD, most
modern European cars are now front wheel drive. Too much hitch weight
will just reduce traction (and steering authority).

I approach the Mynd by a road called the Burway that leads up from
Church Stretton. The approach road from the south at Asterton is even
steeper (1 in3) and is not recommended for towing trailers up.

Actually one of the trailers I tow quite regularly is a four wheel
Cobra Trailer containing a K21. This has no noseweight at all, unless
you put all the trestles and other bits of kit in the front and even
then it's not much. Nevertheless for its size and weight it tows very
well, probably because it is fitted with an Alko friction hitch.

I would like a SUV for towing out of muddy fields etc, but they cost a
lot to run (due to the extortionate cost of fuel in the UK) and
insure, and make you a social pariah in our politically correct New
Labour country. Never have a socialist government!

Derek Copeland


On Oct 31, 4:15*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Oct 31, 3:18*am, delboy wrote:

Not all of the UK is flat and our annual trip from Lasham in Southern
England to Aboyne in Scotland is 540 miles (860 k) over some quite
steep climbs. A number of hilltop sites involve an approach via a
really steep incline, e.g 1 in 3.5 to get to the Long Mynd. My 1.6
litre turbo diesel Citroen Estate pulled a K21 in a Cobra trailer up
that without any difficulty. We do get 30C sometimes in the summer.

To get good towing stability:

1) Make sure that have about 40 lbs of nose weight.

2) Make sure that the trailer tyres are correctly inflated, and
increase the rear tyre pressures of the towing vehicle by 5 psi.

3) Fit a stabiliser bar.

You should then be able to tow at up to about 70mph, even with a
relatively small car.

Derek Copeland

I've towed a 37 foot glider trailer to Aboyne and to the Mynd with a
1600cc Ford Cortina MkIII Estate car manual transmission at 65-70mph
on M and A dual carriage ways. *The country lane to the Mynd was
single lane in places and second gear at best, at least approaching
from the east, which is the grade I think you're referencing. *Google
Earth seems to indicate that's still the case. *I've also towed two
other 37ft glider trailers with a SAAB 900, with a rated towing weight
of 3300lb.
In both cases, some additional weight on the rear wheels was useful.
I also towed with a Rover SD1 for a short while. *Not a good tow
vehicle in my opinion. *The Cortina rear wheels drifted once on wet
pavement on an A11 roundabout on the way to Aboyne, but recovered just
fine. *I jackknifed the SAAB 900 on the A41 just east of Bicester,
largely due to no fuel in the tank and no tools in the boot. *I later
added a stabilizer, but this is really just admitting that the system
of the small tow vehicle and large trailer is actually unstable.

Back in the US, I've opted for the larger tow vehicle because I have
large trailers. *I also like 4WD because I sometimes move a glider and
trailer in winter weather (Sep-Apr), and I like to carry enough kit to
effect expedient repairs (it can be over 100 miles between fuel
stations in the US west). *Power and engine braking is useful on 5 and
10 miles 6% and 8% grades that may exceed 10,000ft msl. *On the down
side, the OD gearing is a bit tall, to increase economy, but results
on 3rd gear downshifts at posted limits of 70 or 75mph on moderate
grades. *At 85mph it stays in OD and the mileage is actually better,
but the fines are higher. *The best medium sized tow vehicle (which
has grown) for 15m that I've driven is the Honda Pilot, but I didn't
like the seating comfort. *Performance and economy are very good. *I'm
sure many are comparable.

The small displacement, fuel injected, lightweight vehicles do work
fine in some environments, but may not be so good in harsh
environments. *This was pointed out on a trip to Santa Barbara/
Pasadena with a soaring friend. *Once we passed Parowan in Utah, he
said we'd start to see a lot of burn patches on the Interstate all the
way to Los Angeles. *He said these were generally the smaller FI cars
that developed high pressure fuel leaks and burst into flames. *Sure
enough, soon we were seeing scorched asphalt an burn patches on the
concrete. *As we passed through St George, the local fire crew was
putting out such a fire. *When it happens miles out in the desert, the
cars generally burn completely. *This road, of course, passes through
Las Vegas. *It's often extremely hot and people drive fast. *The other
frequent happening is the single car accident. *Sure enough, we soon
found a medium sized SUV on its top in the median. *Alcohol or falling
asleep are the main reasons. *It's a very high volume stretch of
highway in a very harsh environment and the number of car fire patches
was truly amazing. *Air temps approach 50C and who knows how hot the
pavement gets.

Simply a case of the right tool for the right job.

Frank Whiteley- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have driven in the Welsh hills. And yes they are steep in places and
the roads are certainly narrow and circuitous. Ideal place to have a
smaller car. However, their highest peak would be subterranean where
this conversation is discussing.

Try the "peak to peak" drive in Colorado,
(http://www.coloradodirectory.com/maps/peak.html)

I tried this in a 1600 Mazda, there were patches where I could not get
out of second, and I was alone in the car, no trailer. High altitude and
steep inclines demand a little more. Either a turbocharger to get some
power back, or lots more power in the first place.

Try the roads to Bloemfontein, 4458 feet MSL, Johannesburg is 480km away
and 5100 feet - summer temperatures average high is 30 Celsius (38 max)
and the roads are two lane freeway, straight as a die for many, many
kilometres on end.

The local build models all have uprated cooling, and drivetrain changes
to suit the sustained high speed running in the heat they get exposed
to, and tend to be the higher power spec. Direct imports occasionally
self ignite, particularly those from places less known for their
original engineering...


Then there Australia - up to 45 Celsius on a bad day. Never been outside
Sydney, myself but the figures speak for themselves. OK - the speeds are
a lot saner there, given that they actually police speed limits
effectively.

Very different challenges from the European roads.

For the soaring side - both locations have excellent soaring - Black
forest in Boulder, and Soaring Safaris in Bloemfontein.

So, the ideal vehicle might vary depending on what the roads are like,
and what the driving is like on the roads...

delboy wrote:
Not all of the UK is flat and our annual trip from Lasham in Southern
England to Aboyne in Scotland is 540 miles (860 k) over some quite
steep climbs. A number of hilltop sites involve an approach via a
really steep incline, e.g 1 in 3.5 to get to the Long Mynd. My 1.6
litre turbo diesel Citroen Estate pulled a K21 in a Cobra trailer up
that without any difficulty. We do get 30C sometimes in the summer.

To get good towing stability:

delboy wrote:
Actually one of the trailers I tow quite regularly is a four wheel
Cobra Trailer containing a K21. This has no noseweight at all, unless
you put all the trestles and other bits of kit in the front and even
then it's not much. Nevertheless for its size and weight it tows very
well, probably because it is fitted with an Alko friction hitch.

The double axle is important, too. My guess is it would tow just as well
without the friction hitch. Has anyone tried that experiment?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

I think there would be a problem with the anti-sway bar if the trailer
has surge brakes. The anti-sway is friction controlled fore/aft, and
the surge brake engages when pushed -- isn't that conflicting with the
anti-sway?

If you have electric (or no) brakes, then the anti-sway bar should be
great.
..

On Nov 1, 6:52*pm, jsbrake wrote:
I think there would be a problem with the anti-sway bar if the trailer
has surge brakes. *The anti-sway is friction controlled fore/aft, and
the surge brake engages when pushed -- isn't that conflicting with the
anti-sway?

If you have electric (or no) brakes, then the anti-sway bar should be
great.
.

I couldn't find a picture of the setup on mine, but it had an
adjustable friction disk on the car side and a slider for the overrun
brake on the trailer. Not quite like the image I posted previously.
The dampening action was side to side.

Frank

Link to a trailer stabiliser bar:

http://www.bulldogsecure.com/category/23/1/stabiliser

These work well and add about 10 mph to your maximum safe towing speed
by damping the tendency to sway. They do not affect the action of the
trailer brakes. The Alko friction trailer hitch also works well, but
you need a special Alko ball hitch and you must not put any grease on
it.

BTW, Several people at my gliding club have jack-knifed twin axle
trailers, so they are not a cure in themselves.

Derek Copeland



On Nov 2, 2:33*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Nov 1, 6:52*pm, jsbrake wrote:

I think there would be a problem with the anti-sway bar if the trailer
has surge brakes. *The anti-sway is friction controlled fore/aft, and
the surge brake engages when pushed -- isn't that conflicting with the
anti-sway?

If you have electric (or no) brakes, then the anti-sway bar should be
great.
.

I couldn't find a picture of the setup on mine, but it had an
adjustable friction disk on the car side and a slider for the overrun
brake on the trailer. *Not quite like the image I posted previously.
The dampening action was side to side.

Frank

On Nov 2, 12:57*am, delboy wrote:
Link to a trailer stabiliser bar:

http://www.bulldogsecure.com/category/23/1/stabiliser

These work well and add about 10 mph to your maximum safe towing speed
by damping the tendency to sway. They do not affect the action of the
trailer brakes. The Alko friction trailer hitch also works well, but
you need a special Alko ball hitch and you must not put any grease on
it.

BTW, Several people at my gliding club have jack-knifed twin axle
trailers, so they are not a cure in themselves.

Derek Copeland

That's the make I had on my SAAB 900. Don't recall if it was a 100 or
200.

Thanks for the link Derek.

Frank