cost of ownership

In article m,
Richard Kaplan wrote:
If you do an honest assessment of the cost to own an airplane, virtually no
airplane owner can operate his airplane cheaper than he coudl rent the same
airplane.

Mainly because virtually no renter would fly as many hours as an owner.
You can make the cost per hour work out better (assuming you don't
botch the prebuy and the airplane market doesn't collapse while you
own it) but the *total* annual cost will be higher.

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

Richard Kaplan wrote:

If you do an honest assessment of the cost to own an airplane, virtually no
airplane owner can operate his airplane cheaper than he coudl rent the same
airplane. This is particularly true for a C172-class airplane which is
unlikely to be used on a very regular basis for practical transporation
except in some very specific regions of the country which almost always have
VFR weather, i.e. the Southwest.

That's a bit excessive. I agree that a C172/Cherokee class airplane isn't
the fastest way to get somewhere against a headwind, and it's definitely not
a coast-to-coast plane, but it's a perfectly reasonable IFR platform. I fly
my Warrior quite a bit in IMC in central Canada and the U.S. northeast.

In the winter, late fall, and early spring, I have to cancel flights
sometimes because of the risk of icing in IMC, but that would be true in any
plane without full known-ice certification (i.e. most singles and many
twins). I've added a Stormscope for peace-of-mind in summer IMC.

Reasons to buy an airplane include not having to deal with restrictions on
keeping a rental airplane for a week or so trip, having access to an
airplane not available for rental, having control over maintenance, having
control over modifications/avionics, and simply pride of ownership. These
are all fine reasons to buy an airplane -- do not think that it will be
cheaper than owning, however.

I agree with your point, but in fact, the cost of owning hasn't been too far
off for me -- I paid a bit more per hour in my first year (who doesn't?),
but my second year is shaping up to be much less expensive, even with used
Stormscope installation, so I'll probably be slightly ahead (that includes
amortization for the engine, etc.).

Still, I agree that it's not cheaper in absolute terms: I doubt I'd be
flying 120 hours/year as a renter, so I'd probably be spending much less.

If you do buy an airplane, consider that the cost of a surprise engine
overhaul can easily be 25% of the value of the airplane. Imagine one day
getting a call from your mechanic with the bad news that you need to do an
unexpected early engine overhaul. If you would not be able to handle that
financially, then either do not buy the airplane or else seek a partner to
buy the airplane with you.

I agree entirely, and it doesn't even have to be an overhaul -- as Richard
knows, there are lots of other little things in even the simplest plane that
can break and cost you anywhere from $500 to $5000 and beyond.


All the best,


David

Richard Kaplan wrote:

If you do an honest assessment of the cost to own an airplane, virtually no
airplane owner can operate his airplane cheaper than he coudl rent the same
airplane.

Really? Ever try to rent a Maule MX-7?

Reasons to buy an airplane include not having to deal with restrictions on
keeping a rental airplane for a week or so trip,

But that is part of the cost of rental. If I have to pay for 21 hours rental for a
week trip, and I fly my own aircraft 4 hours for the same trip, that's "operating my
aircraft cheaper than I can rent the same plane."

George Patterson
I childproofed my house, but they *still* get in.

"Ben Jackson" wrote in message
news:PRwsc.109351$536.19458583@attbi_s03...

Mainly because virtually no renter would fly as many hours as an owner.

Owners typically think they will fly 150-200 hours per year but very rarely
do owners fly more than 50-100 hours per year.

Take a look at Trade-A-Plane and see how many airplanes you find with more
than 100 hours per year since they were made.


--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"David Megginson" wrote in message
e.rogers.com...

That's a bit excessive. I agree that a C172/Cherokee class airplane isn't
the fastest way to get somewhere against a headwind, and it's definitely
not
a coast-to-coast plane, but it's a perfectly reasonable IFR platform. I
fly
my Warrior quite a bit in IMC in central Canada and the U.S. northeast.

It is fine as an IFR platform as you say except for icing conditions or
situations where headwinds limit your alternates and as long as you plan
trips of reasonable distance for the airplane's speed.

Altogether, that is why I say that few owner-flown C172/Cherokee airplanes
fly more than 50-100 hours per year. It is rare to have a typical aviation
mission to use the airplane more than this given the airplane's abilities.

Do you fly more than 100 hours per year in your airplane? If so, you are an
exception. How many pilots here fly a C172-class airplane over 100 hours
per year?


--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...

But that is part of the cost of rental. If I have to pay for 21 hours
rental for a
week trip, and I fly my own aircraft 4 hours for the same trip, that's
"operating my
aircraft cheaper than I can rent the same plane."

I agree completely that one reason to own an airplane is to fly something
not easily available for rent -- a Maule certainly fits that category.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

Thanks for the info Elwood.
I get excited thinking about ownership, but like buying a car, it's best not
to get emotional.
Your post helped me get a decent perspective on the ups and downs of
ownership.

thanks!

Adam

"Elwood Dowd" wrote in message
...
There is a big difference between owning and renting. Let me explain.

When you own a plane, you know exactly where it has been, who has been
flying it and working on it, when the oil was changed last, what that
funny smell is. You know no one other than you (or your partners if you
have them) has landed the plane hard and tried to hide it, or buzzed an
irate neighbor, etc. Peace of mind. If you rent long enough you will
see some crazy crap that people pull.

To pay for this peace of mind, you have to come up cash for all of the
regular bills: fuel and oil, maintenance, hangar, insurance. This list
can be as fancy or tame as you want, but for a trainer it breaks down
pretty easily. I'll mock one up so you can see:

insurance: $800/yr
tie-down: $480/yr (40/mo)
loan pmts: $3600/yr (300/mo)
annual: $1000/yr
flying: $2000/yr (2.50/gal, 8gph, 100hrs)
misc: $1000/yr (oil, light bulbs, unplanned)
--------
$8880/yr = $740/mo

Sure you can make it cheaper. Do a lot of your own maintenance, get a
plane with an auto gas STC, all kinds of things. Get a homebuilt, you
might cut that value in half, many owners have.

Now, to answer your question about a break-even point, if you are paying
$75/hr to rent that trainer then that 100 hrs costs you $7500, no
variation. You might find a cheaper rental, but other than that you
have no options in making it cheaper.

Now, here we get to the real difference. "Breaking even" happens
somewhere around 125 hours in this model, but doing this kind of math is
entirely misleading. There are many, many variables in ownership that
simply don't exist when renting. More to the point, there are
responsibilities that don't exist for renters. When it breaks YOU pay
for it. Sometimes it breaks in a very big way.

Our plane broke in a very big way just after we bought it. Nosegear
collapsed on the 8th landing we made. Got the engine apart---yep, it
needs a complete overhaul, because prepurchase inspections do not have
x-ray vision. Even after the insurance settlement we paid over 1/3
again for the plane, not counting the $2500 to get my family home from
the middle of nowhere on a commercial airline.

This is not to scare you. We rebuilt our plane and it ROCKS. I could
never go back to renting even if I had one next door. However, you have
to know what responsibilities you are taking on, and how you are going
to answer them if they call. We are lucky, we have some home equity we
could spend on the plane. If I hadn't had that, what kind of repairs
would I have been able to afford? Would I have put my family back into
it with cheaper repairs?

In this way it is no different from an RV or a nice boat---the costs are
similar. But your family is not necessarily in danger if you go cheap
on fixing your RV.

Anyway, I hope this gives you some things to think about. Use your
imagination and try to think of bad things that could happen, and how
much they could cost, and how you will afford them if they do. Think of
this as a graduation in responsibility and you will be better prepared
to accept the benefits.

hope this helps

Elwood


The Weiss Family wrote:
I would love to know your real-world costs of ownership for your fixed
gear

Glad to hear! Keep us in the loop.

More advice: don't forget about the non-CessnaPiper planes out there,
or even some of the lesser known models of brand C and P. There are
some fantastic deals. Cessna Cardinal RGs and Mooney M20C and -E, for
example, all go 145 knots on 9-10gph. The Cardinal comes in a
welded-leg version as well.

Mooneys are great planes if you can fit into them. In my experience, if
you are comfortable in a Cherokee you can squeeze in.

I feel claustrophobic with small cabins and only one door, so we bought
a Beechcraft Sierra, same engine as the Mooney and Cardinal RG but only
135kt or so---but a cabin nearly as big as our station wagon. The fixed
gear version is a Musketeer or Sundowner. Not all have two doors, but
some even have a kid-size bench seat in the baggage area.

We decided that cabin size and ease of egress were more important than
speed, so we ended up with a Beech instead of a Mooney. It was a toss
up between the Sierra and the Cardinal RG---the Sierra was about 4/5 the
cost.

Best thing to do is to get Ron Wanttaja's book, one of the Bill Clarke
anthologies, or an older edition of Aviation Consumer's guide to used
planes, and look through the stats. Figure out what's important, and go
from there. When you have it narrowed down, join the type club mailing
lists. Both the Cardinal list and the Musketeer list have been
fantastic resources.



The Weiss Family wrote:
Thanks for the info Elwood.
I get excited thinking about ownership, but like buying a car, it's best not
to get emotional.
Your post helped me get a decent perspective on the ups and downs of
ownership.

"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
s.com...

"Ben Jackson" wrote in message
news:PRwsc.109351$536.19458583@attbi_s03...

Mainly because virtually no renter would fly as many hours as an owner.

Owners typically think they will fly 150-200 hours per year but very
rarely
do owners fly more than 50-100 hours per year.

Take a look at Trade-A-Plane and see how many airplanes you find with more
than 100 hours per year since they were made.

I wonder what's the rates between those who have it for "personal" use as
opposed to "business" use.

Forget it, never listen to someone who has absolutely no business posting
this....



Forget it. You will never make a leaseback work. Plus it is the same as
renting a plane. You now have to schedule your own damn plane. You would
need commercial insurance. It is at least three times regular insurance.



Seriously, there are a thousand stores of bad leaseback situations. You
will not here the happy owners screaming at the top of their lungs. My
leaseback works okay. The key is to have a plane that can get the hours you
need it to. If yo uneed 40 plus hours/month, the plane needs to be a
primary trainer (or the only plane that fills the complex trainer role), and
needs to be something that fits in with the fleet (you don't necessarily
want to be the only low wing or high wing in a fleet).

You have to evaluate the fleet hours they are getting, who owns the other
planes, what will likley happen to the hours on the fleet from your adding a
plane (will it just spread the same renters thinner, or will it fill a need,
or what). Also, you need a rainy day fund.

You will likely be placed on the FBO's fleet insurance.