New Class for US Nationals

Good bless you RC...what a cowpile responsibility. Your dedication is deep and thank you for your service.

Your proposal may be the best way to go. Who can say for sure? But after all this discussion, it's still not clear to me why the US should go outside the existing FAI rules.

As a Club Class competitor, I'd really be chapped to know the pilot who beat me and made the World Team was flying a sailplane not qualified to fly in the Worlds.

SSA, please give this a good hard look.

Ben

On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 11:26:58 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Good bless you RC...what a cowpile responsibility. Your dedication is deep and thank you for your service. Your proposal may be the best way to go. Who can say for sure? But after all this discussion, it's still not clear to me why the US should go outside the existing FAI rules. As a Club Class competitor, I'd really be chapped to know the pilot who beat me and made the World Team was flying a sailplane not qualified to fly in the Worlds. SSA, please give this a good hard look. Ben

National competition and team selection do not have to be perfectly aligned..
We have been selecting the members of the US team from those pilots flying in the Sports class that were flying gliders on a list that very closely emulates the list used at recent WGC events.
The USTC is considering what to do in light of ihe introduction of Club. One option is to continue the existing team selection policy. Another is to expand the list in various ways. Personally, I think retaining the limitation that has been in place since 2006 is the thing to do. I speak only as a participant.
With respect to the US national class, it is worth noting that many other countries do not use the IGC list literally, but adjust the list to suit their situation. We are doing the same thing.
A very short and simple study of what gliders flew in US contests in 2012 indicated that by defining the Club class list as the RC has proposed, the population of gliders possibly participating is increased by something around 60%. This would bode well for the possibility of establishing a class with a solid participation base.
Some in the higher performance range may also stay is Sports. We'll see.
This has gotten a lot of thought over quite a number of years.
Cheers
UH

Again I want to emphasize my personal Thank You to the rules committee for officially sanctioning the Club Class concept here in the U.S.A. This is a complicated issue and I am certain that much thought and discussion has been spent addressing this issue.

I, for one, do not have a problem making limited additions and subtractions from a club class list of gliders. OR, conceptually, to/from a range of handicaps. Lest it escape anyone's notice, it was our conception of "Club" Class/"Modern" Class split of US Sports Class that was named as such and proven out in Moriarty, NM back in 2010. Yes, we cut off particpation of the upper end of the handicap range. But we did so to make for better racing.

My, and I think other's, big problem is with the opening of the RANGE of handicaps allowed. It is too broad to really offer the benefits of Club Class as seen around the world.

What has proven so popular around the world, and there is absolutely no evidence to say it will not work as well here in the US, is the idea of "limited handicap racing". This is, in fact, what you're trying to do with Std Class by limiting the benefits of handicapping to .95.

Defining the US Club class as something roughly around the Range of the IGC concept WILL bring older, less costly ships into the competition scene - many of them in the hands of good, dedicated pilots.

The currently proposed conception of Club Class has not been tailored to aim at getting these ships into the competition scene. Sure is it easy to parrot the "run what ya'brung" line to promote the "racing fairness" of US Sports Class as a vibrant competition class, but it is not enough to entice many into the game. A fairer, more tailored racing experience for a limited range of older ships can do that.

It is the the Limited Handicap Range that makes Club Class work so well. By opening up the range you dilute the benefits you are hopefully trying to capture - good, fairer handicapped racing.

Thank you again for your work on this contentious issue.

Tim McAllister EY

Master Tim has the point.

Following all the rules of the IGC the South African club class recently
was extended to include the Ventus 1 and similar performance ships. FAI
approved list and handicaps and all. The motivation being that the
Standard Class was dying with too few entries to make a race, and a
significant portion of the fleet not competitive in any class.

So - the news is that we now have no standard class racing at all.
(there are only a couple of ASW27s and 24s) Everyone is either in 18m
(Lots of JS1 and Ventus 2, one ASG29 and a couple of LAK17b)
Club class is now an ASW20, Ventus 1, ASW28 class. All the older ships -
including my Std Cirrus are out of contention. The tasks that suit the
higher performance ships make it pointless being there in a 1970s
Standard class ship.

Handicapped racing needs all the competitors to be of reasonably similar
performance - otherwise the "race" becomes so spread out and fractious
that the fun and fairness goes missing.

Set tasks that the Libelle and Cirrus and Pheobus are suited to - and
the Ventus/ASW20 drivers complain it is too short and does not afford
them a chance to race. Set it to suit them and you get situations where
the next thermal is out of range of the first generation, and they
complain that despite the handicap they are excluded from the results by
physics.

So - in our case we still have a limited range of handicaps competing,
but entries are now clustered around the new hot ships.

The first generation ships have retired from racing. But there is
slightly more participation. Does not help when it comes to flying in
Club Class worlds.


On 2012/11/15 5:33 AM, wrote:
Again I want to emphasize my personal Thank You to the rules committee for officially sanctioning the Club Class concept here in the U.S.A. This is a complicated issue and I am certain that much thought and discussion has been spent addressing this issue.

I, for one, do not have a problem making limited additions and subtractions from a club class list of gliders. OR, conceptually, to/from a range of handicaps. Lest it escape anyone's notice, it was our conception of "Club" Class/"Modern" Class split of US Sports Class that was named as such and proven out in Moriarty, NM back in 2010. Yes, we cut off particpation of the upper end of the handicap range. But we did so to make for better racing.

My, and I think other's, big problem is with the opening of the RANGE of handicaps allowed. It is too broad to really offer the benefits of Club Class as seen around the world.

What has proven so popular around the world, and there is absolutely no evidence to say it will not work as well here in the US, is the idea of "limited handicap racing". This is, in fact, what you're trying to do with Std Class by limiting the benefits of handicapping to .95.

Defining the US Club class as something roughly around the Range of the IGC concept WILL bring older, less costly ships into the competition scene - many of them in the hands of good, dedicated pilots.

The currently proposed conception of Club Class has not been tailored to aim at getting these ships into the competition scene. Sure is it easy to parrot the "run what ya'brung" line to promote the "racing fairness" of US Sports Class as a vibrant competition class, but it is not enough to entice many into the game. A fairer, more tailored racing experience for a limited range of older ships can do that.

It is the the Limited Handicap Range that makes Club Class work so well. By opening up the range you dilute the benefits you are hopefully trying to capture - good, fairer handicapped racing.

Thank you again for your work on this contentious issue.

Tim McAllister EY


--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771

In the last 4 Club Class World/European Champs there has never been a glider in the top 5 that had a base handicap above 1.01 (1.01 is e.g. a Jantar Std. 3/LS 1F/ASW 19 - 1.02 with WL)

The best placing of a glider with a handicap near the top of the permited range (1.07+) has been 6th & 10th (ASW 24 in 2010/2008 - same pilot, he's now flying a DG 100). Best placing for an ASW 20 (1.08/1.09 with WL) has been 19th (2011), for a Discus (1.07/1.08 with WL) 18th (2008).

The sites have been your typical run of the mill European flat land/mixed terrain sites with Rieti as a true mountain site in 2008. It should be safe to assume that they had anything from strong to weak thermal conditions with typical mountain flying in Rieti. National results for Club Class e.g. in Germany will show similar results.

So statistically speaking you do not want to be at the high performance end of the Club class, the ideal performance range seems to be bottom to middle, let's say 0.98 to 1.02 with WL.

I can't see how that would change with a Ventus or LS-6 (or the remaining ASW 20s). How much more performance will a Ventus or LS-6 give you over a first generation ASW-20 to make it a game changer in your normal and statistically relevant range of conditions taking the increased handicap into account?

The question might be how much people initially migrate to higher performance ships when they become allowed because they perceive an advantage even though that might only be the case in extreme conditions that are statistically irrelevant and get absorbed by the handicap disadvantage during your "normal" days.

Here the numbers:

Europeans Club Class 2011
Nitra, Slovak Republic

1 - Std. Cirrus 1.00
2 - LS 1F 1.01
3 - Jantar Std. 3 1.01
4 - Libelle 0.98
5 - ASW 15 0.98
6 - Std. Cirrus 1.00
7 - 18 see above 0.98 - 1.01
19 - ASW 20 1.08
20 - Discus B 1.07

Worlds Club Class 2010
Prievidza, Slovakia

1 - Libelle 0.98
2 - Libelle 0.98
3 - ASW 15 0.98
4 - Hornet WL 1.01
5 - Jantar Std. 3M (Brawo) 1.01
6 - ASW 24 1.07
7 - 20 Libelle/Cirrus/Jantar/LS 1F 0.98 - 1.01
except
14 - LS 4 1.04
18 - ASW 19B WL 1.02

Europeans Club Class 2009
Pociunai, Lithuania

1 - LS 1F 1.01
2 - ASW 19 WL 1.02
3 - LS 1F 1.01
4 - Jantar Std. 3M (Brawo) 1.01
5 - Jantar Std. 1.00
6 - ASW 19 1.01
7 - LS 4a 1.04
8 - Jantar Std. 3 1.01
9 - LS 4 1.04
10 - LS 7 WL 1.07
11 - 20 Cirrus/Jantar/ASW 19/LS 1D/F 0.98 - 1.01
21 - Discus B WL 1.08

Worlds Club Class 2008
Rieti, Italy
1 - Hornet 1.00
2 - Std. Cirrus 1.00
3 - Std. Cirrus 1.00
4 - Std. Cirrus 1.00
5 - LS 1F 1.01
6 - Jantar Std. 3M (Brawo) 1.01
7 - 9 LS 1F/Cirrus/Jantar 0.98 - 1.01
10 - ASW 24 1.07
11 - 18 DG 100/Cirrus/ASW 19/LS 1F 0.98 - 1.01
18 - Discus 1.07
20 - ASW 19 1.01

Markus

It is the the Limited Handicap Range that makes Club Class work so well. By opening up the range you dilute the benefits you are hopefully trying to capture - good, fairer handicapped racing.

This is exactly why we split sports class, with typically 30-40
entries in two. It gives smaller handicap racing, and allows for a
better race. You're welcome.

As soon as we get 60 entries, with a viable low-performace group, we
can split it up into three.

I mean, really, why not have even purer racing with a handicap range
of 0.939-0.941? Answer, because there are not enough entries.
Handicapped racing is always about realistically carving up the
available entries into groups, large enough to make a good race, small
enough to make a fair and enjoyable race not too dependent on luck of
weather, tasking, and handicap.

You're forgetting that "good, fairer racing" also depends on numbers.
8 guys in a narrow class is not as good a race as 25 in a very
slightly broader class. One of the big lessons of our team self-
examination process is that Europeans fly contests with 50 gliders and
10 world level pilots in them. 8 with 1 is not a substitute 12 gliders
is a rock bottom. Really, a successful world-level-preparation race
needs 30 gliders to be considered successful. Yes, that makes it a lot
harder to win. That's the point.

No other class says "you may not fly your glider in this race. Go
home" You are allowed to fly a ventus1 asw20, or discus LS4, or even a
1-26 if you're so inclined in 15 meter class. That's why both halves
of sports have open bottom ends.

The currently proposed conception of Club Class has not been tailored to aim at getting these ships into the competition scene.

This is absolutely false. The RC's number one concern, and the number
one guiding principle in all our club class discussion has been how to
increase participation. You may rightly accuse us of not paying enough
attention to preparing the team for WGC, because we're too interested
in participation. But not that we're insufficiently focused on
participation!

We're talking about nationals. Next year. To go to nationals, you have
to participate in regionals and get on the ranking list. To get good
enough for nationals you have to participate in regionals. We looked
hard at the numbers. Go look at my Soaring article. The numbers are
just not there yet.

That's why we've been having club class regionals and super regionals
for several years now. And we can have as many as anyone wants to
schedule and show up for, with nothing but cheering from RC. To have a
successful class at the national level, you have to have a successful
class at the regional level. If people won't show up for any contest
that does not give US team points, frankly, they're never going to get
good enough to belong on that team.

You're making the usual "build it and they will come" argument, that
somehow declaring a much narrower nationals class will magically make
gliders appear that do not appear at super regionals, do not come to
sports nationals, and aren't even on the seeding list so they can't
appear. We're not talking about 3 or 4, to make this viable you have
to double the numbers that show up at sports nationals in "club"
gliders.

There is a bit of burned once, twice shy here. Club advocates said,
"restrict team selection to club gliders, then lots will show up, and
all the FAI guys will borrow a club glider to go to nationals." It
didn't work. Club advocates said, "restrict team selection to people
who haven't been to WGC before, so the little guy feels he has a
chance. That will double the numbers." It didn't work. Club advocates
said "tasking must ignore gliders below 1.0 handicap so we can have
real races, that will bring them all out." It didn't work. World class
advocates at IGC said "build a simple cheap one design glider so you
can have the "purest" race possible, and they'll line up for it" It
didn't work.

The path we have followed with club class is designed to build
participation without going out on a cliff that falls to pieces if the
theory is wrong again. We start with strong encouragement for
regional and super regional competitions, where you can experiment
with handicap ranges, rules tweaks, etc., find out what works in the
US, with our base of pilots and gliders. Build a base. That has been
successful, though the 10-12 gliders that show up were a good deal
below the forecasts. Anyway, kudos to those who worked hard on it. We
included lots of above sweeteners for club within sports nationals.
Now it has grown to the point that we can split sports nationals in
two, but keeping the upper limit where it was all along in the US
(V1/20ABC). You have everything you want, you just have to let a few
1-34s play along. The idea "20 gliders are waiting to come to
nationals, as soon as you write a rule that the 1-34 can't come
pollute our contest" is just silly.

This is realistic and responsible. Just pounding for "pure club class
now" -- and damn the torpedoes we all go home if not enough show up --
is not. Get 30 "club" gliders to show up at Mifflin, figure out where
the low performance gliders can go, and we can start talking about
next steps.

John Cochrane

On Nov 13, 10:26*pm, wrote:

Your proposal may be the best way to go. Who can say for sure? But after all this discussion, it's still not clear to me why the US should go outside the existing FAI rules.

As a Club Class competitor, I'd really be chapped to know the pilot who beat me and made the World Team was flying a sailplane not qualified to fly in the Worlds.


How will you feel when you drive all the way across country to the
sports class contest, and then get sent home because 8 people with
just the right gliders didn't show up? Ask the PW5 guys how this
feels.

How would you feel, if you were a new pilot, flew a regionals, found
this great ship to buy, went to club nationals, but they sent you home
because your ASW20B, Schweitzer 1-35, HP 18 or American-made
sparrowhawk isn't on a list maintained by a commission of
international volunteers that meets once a year in Switzerland?

How would you feel if 10 gliders showed up, but 3 of them were like
that, so everybody got sent home?

How would you feel if you got sent home, but then they release the
club class list for Finland, and your ASW20 B is now on it?

The FAI rules are designed to run club class world contests, in
Europe, based on gliders available at European clubs. There is no
reason to expect those rules to work for the US.

SSA, please give this a good hard look.

I can assure you, days and days have been spent looking at this,
looking through all the angles, reviewing the turnout data from all
the club class regionals, thinking through all the ways that bright
ideas can blow up.

John Cochrane


Ben

At 15:02 14 November 2012, John Cochrane wrote:
On Nov 13, 10:26=A0pm, wrote:

Your proposal may be the best way to go. Who can say for sure? But
after
=
all this discussion, it's still not clear to me why the US should go
outsid=
e the existing FAI rules.

As a Club Class competitor, I'd really be chapped to know the pilot who
b=
eat me and made the World Team was flying a sailplane not qualified to
fly
=
in the Worlds.


How will you feel when you drive all the way across country to the
sports class contest, and then get sent home because 8 people with
just the right gliders didn't show up? Ask the PW5 guys how this
feels.

How would you feel, if you were a new pilot, flew a regionals, found
this great ship to buy, went to club nationals, but they sent you home
because your ASW20B, Schweitzer 1-35, HP 18 or American-made
sparrowhawk isn't on a list maintained by a commission of
international volunteers that meets once a year in Switzerland?

How would you feel if 10 gliders showed up, but 3 of them were like
that, so everybody got sent home?

How would you feel if you got sent home, but then they release the
club class list for Finland, and your ASW20 B is now on it?

The FAI rules are designed to run club class world contests, in
Europe, based on gliders available at European clubs. There is no
reason to expect those rules to work for the US.

SSA, please give this a good hard look.

I can assure you, days and days have been spent looking at this,
looking through all the angles, reviewing the turnout data from all
the club class regionals, thinking through all the ways that bright
ideas can blow up.

John Cochrane


John your lack of understanding confounds me- IGC Club class is defined by
a handicap/performance range (which the 20b, ventus and LS6 are not in) -
not a list of gliders - the IGC list can be added to if the glider falls
within that handicap / performance range and is competing in a championship
i.e. a Slingsby Vega is not on the IGC list but could be added to it as it
falls within the handicap range used. That range of handicaps has been
fairly static for a number of years and has not changed at every
championship as you seem to state. Thus a 1-35 and HP18 would probably fall
within that range -a Sparrowhawk I doubt.
Your analogy with PW5 Class is entirely bogus as there are vastly superior
numbers of potential club class ships out there, even in the US.
Does lack of numbers stop you running an Open class comp?

Just to clear up some misconceptions with regards to the IGC Club class definition. From the current FAI sporting code (http://www.fai.org/igc-documents):

START QUOTE

FAI Sporting Code
Section 3 – Gliding
CLASS D (gliders)
including Class DM (motorgliders)
....
Chapter 6
GLIDER CLASSES and
INTERNATIONAL COMPETITIONS
....
6.2 HANDICAPPING
The purpose of handicapping shall be to equalise the performance of competing gliders as far as possible. The handicap values used shall be directly proportional to the expected cross-country speeds of gliders in typical soaring conditions for the competition concerned.

If handicapping is to be used, it shall be applied directly to the speed or distance achieved: for finishers, to the speed only, for non-finishers, to the distance only. Competitors completing the task shall not be given less than full distance points, and competitors not completing the task shall not
be given more than full distance points. Any list of handicaps proposed for a competition must be approved by the IGC.
....
6.5.8 Club Class
The purpose of the Club Class is to preserve the value of older high performance gliders, to provide inexpensive but high quality international championships, and to enable pilots who do not have access to gliders of the highest standard of performance to take part in contests at the highest levels.
a. ENTRY The only limitation on entry of a glider into a Club Class competition is that it is within the agreed range of handicap factors for the competition.
b. BALLAST Disposable ballast is not permitted.
c. SCORING Championship scoring formulas shall include handicap factors.
d. WING LOADING Wing loading shall not exceed 38 kg/m2.
....
FAI Sporting Code
Annex A to Section 3 – Gliding
RULES FOR WORLD AND CONTINENTAL
SOARING CHAMPIONSHIPS
CLASS D (gliders)
Including Class DM (motorgliders)
....
1.3 CHAMPIONSHIP CLASSES
1.3.1 The Championships shall consist of the one or more classes as described in the main body of Section 3 of the Sporting Code, Chapter 6, and as listed in the Local Procedures.
....
4.2 MAXIMUM TAKE OFF MASS
4.2.1 The following Maximum Take Off Mass (MTOM) shall be enforced:
....
d. Club Class – No ballast permitted and MTOM limited to the lowest of:
1. Maximum wing loading 38 Kg/m2
2. Maximum certified Take Off Mass without water according to Type Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS).
....
8.2 COMMON RULES
....
8.2.4 Handicaps
Handicapping shall be used in the Club Class and may be used in the 20 metre Multi-seat Class in Continental Championships only. Organisers shall state in the Local Procedures if Handicapping is to be used in the 20 metre Multi-seat Class.
a. Handicaps shall be taken from the valid IGC Handicap list or any other list approved by the IGC Bureau for the specific Championships.
b. The Organisers shall publish a list of all competitors with their handicaps before the beginning of the Championships.
c. Handicaps shall be applied according to 8.3.2.
....
Appendix 3
IGC Handicap Lists
The IGC Handicap Committee is responsible for the evaluation, review and publication of glider handicaps. The IGC Handicap lists consists of:

IGC Club Class Handicap List
IGC 20 metre Multi-seat Class Handicap list

The handicaps for each class are published on the FAI website.
http://www.fai.org/fai-documents

Effective date for changes to the handicap list is April 1st each year.

General rules for the IGC Club Class:
Only Single Seat Gliders with a handicap index of 1,09 or lower are eligible.
Retrofitting a glider with retractable landing gear increases the Handicap by 0.02.
Retrofitting a glider with winglets increases the Handicap by 0.01.
The pilot is responsible for providing documentation to prove that his glider will be operated within the legal weight limits.
The handicap is based on the performance at a stated glider reference weight, which is based on a typical empty weight plus 110 kg. Where a glider is flown at a higher weight by necessity, the handicap will be increased by 0.005 for each 10 kg or part thereof that the glider exceeds the base handicap weight.

General rules for the IGC 20 metre Multi-seat Class Handicap list:
To be determined.

END QUOTE

The current official handicap range used by the IGC is 0.96 to 1.09 (see http://www.fai.org/downloads/igc/IGC...bClassList_V1). The last handicap range change was in 2006/2007, when the top limit was moved up from 1,07 to 1,09. This led to the addition of ASW 20 WL (15m), Discus 1, ASW 24 WL/24B WL, DG 400 (15m), SZD 55 and ASW 20 (15m) to the official IGC Club class handicap list.

Now the not so obvious actual implementation of the Club class: Have a look at

Section 3 - 6.5.8 Club Class - a. ENTRY The only limitation on entry of a glider into a Club Class competition is that it is within the agreed range of handicap factors for the competition.

and then at

Annex A to Section 3 - 8.2.4 Handicaps
Handicapping shall be used in the Club Class ...

a. Handicaps shall be taken from the valid IGC Handicap list or any other list approved by the IGC Bureau for the specific Championships.
b. The Organisers shall publish a list of all competitors with their handicaps before the beginning of the Championships.

So yes, the official IGC Club Class handicap range is 0.96 to 1.09 but if the glider of your choice is ostensibly within that range but not on the official IGC Handicap list you are out of luck for a Category 1 event (Worlds/Continentals)... Unless the IGC has approved a different list for the particular you want to fly in...

This is the case for the 2012 Club Class WGC in Argentina this January, see http://www.fai.org/downloads/igc/IGC...ap_list_ARG_V2. They did not change the handicap range but did add the Std. Astir G102 & SZD-51 Junior to allow these gliders types to participate (even decent Club Class gliders are of limited supply in Argentina).

This illustrates the point that unless the glider of your choice is by name on an approved IGC Club Class handicap list (general or event specific) it won't matter if it falls within the predefined range, it won't be allowed to participate in an FAI/IGC Category 1 event.

The IGC maintains a very short handicap list that only includes the most common glider types in that handicap range, 51 total but in reality only some 15 or so truly different glider types. The current list is, as mentioned, Eurocentric with not a single non-European type on it.

At the 3 previous South American Continental Championships in Argentina 8.2..4 a. was used to approve the Argentine Handicap system to run 3 handicapped classes of distinct handicap ranges, have a look at the results from the last one this past January:

Standard Class - http://igcrankings.fai.org/CompPage.php?compid=1436
15m Class - http://igcrankings.fai.org/CompPage.php?compid=1437
Open Class - http://igcrankings.fai.org/CompPage.php?compid=1438

As you can see the glider list for Std/15m looked more like a Club Class list, this was a fully sanctioned FAI/IGC Continental Championship (Category 1) to which the full FAI/IGC sporting code (competition rules) applied.

Markus Graeber
IGC Delegate - Colombia

Link to South American Continental Championship Standard Class results got chewed up:

Standard Class - http://igcrankings.fai.org/CompPage.php?compid=1436