![]() |
If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
#1
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
I have to make a decision that could have a big impact on a fellow pilot
and I would appreciate knowing what you would do in my situation - Here are the basic facts: Today I, along with a pilot passenger (witness) went to a fly-in - lots of planes arriving in short time frame. Active runway was 14, lh downwind, circuit height 3000 ft. We called 5 miles out (procedure) and received a response from another pilot "Joining 17 in 2 minutes". I responded, "are you arriving xxx airport - there is no 17" Response - "sorry I meant 35". I reply, there is no 35 - the runways are 14 and 32. 14 is active, downwind is lh, circuit is 3000 ft. Response - circling over 35 losing altitude. Me - I am approaching threshold of 32 at 3000ft to join downwind left 14. There is no 35 and you should not be descending over the runway. Response - I am at 5500 descending for 35. Me - I repeat this airport is 14 and 32 - circuit height is 3000 ft. We are about to cross midfield to join downwind left 14. Response - Sorry I meant 32 - I am on downwind left 32. (32 if it was active - is downwind right) Me - You are on head on collision course with me- I am in immediate emergency descent and crossing to midfield (no choice - mountains in other direction) Response - Well - I'm trying to land here! Huh? Me - XXX Radio - are you guys listening to this? I could really use your help here right now (I admit - I got VERY rattled) XXX Radio - Errr aircraft xxx active is downwind left 14. So I land. And then this plane comes in and bounces nose wheel to mains - 4 or 5 times. So I'm out of the plane and I meet a friend who arrived before me. And that was when I found out that our radio calls had been broadcast via loudspeakers to over 1000 spectators. And my friend said, "I am really embarrassed about this, because I have been trying to help this pilot (who has a PPL and over 100 hours) but she is totally clueless. So the pilot now taxis next to my friends aircraft , taxis into the grass/soft dirt - gets stuck trying to turn, applys FULL power and sprays the side of my friends aircraft with dirt & stones - and keeps doing it - because she is so clueless she doesn't know what she is doing. Moving forward - I watched her depart. Radio at taxiway - Aircraft calling on final - which airport are you landing at - I kid you not. Aircraft on final - 14 XXX He lands. Another aircraft calls final 14 xxx Response - Aircraft on final - which airport are you landing at? Aircraft on final - 14 XXX And yet another aircraft calls final. "Listen - I'm waiting to take off here" He lands. She has about 8 aircraft behind her. Now she does her runup. Her call - XXX taking off. (No runway - just taking off). Of the approx 500 aircraft that took off here today, this was the ONLY one that didn't backtrack. With nosewheel up way to soon for density altitude she took off, stall horn wailing as she skimmed the trees and departed for home. Would you report her - or would you forget it? I'm having a hard time thinking of reporting her, I'll have a harder time if I do nothing and she crashes next week. What would you do? Thanks Tony -- Tony Roberts PP-ASEL VFR OTT Night Almost Instrument ![]() Cessna 172H C-GICE |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
![]() "tony roberts" wrote in message news:nospam-7E8DDE.22231620062004@shawnews... I have to make a decision that could have a big impact on a fellow pilot and I would appreciate knowing what you would do in my situation snip I'm having a hard time thinking of reporting her, I'll have a harder time if I do nothing and she crashes next week. What would you do? Thanks Tony If I could find her I might send her a private email, or even a phone call diplomatically (is such a thing possible?) suggesting remedial radio and pattern work. But in all likelihood I would do nothing. You have no reason to feel bad, other than the standard response to any accident, if she crashes next week - she is a pilot, she has to take responsibility for herself. |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
"tony roberts" wrote in message
news:nospam-7E8DDE.22231620062004@shawnews... [...] Would you report her - or would you forget it? I'm having a hard time thinking of reporting her, I'll have a harder time if I do nothing and she crashes next week. What would you do? I'm not sure I'm entirely clear on your narrative. It looked like from what you wrote that you know someone who personally knows the pilot you're asking about. Is that right? If so, I'd say the first step is to try to work through your friend to find out what the deal is with this pilot, and whether she understands what a hazard she is. That she would attempt to participate in such a crowded situation with so few hours, and with so little in the way of basic piloting skills seems very strange, unless she is completely oblivious to her own limitations. If you've ascertained that she is unable to understand that she needs more training and more experience, or you are unable to make contact with the pilot, then I'd say that the local FSDO is your only option, should you want to do something. The question of whether you should depends on your own ethics..."Michael" obviously feels it's none of your concern. I disagree...as I've said before in similar situations, if you could be sure the only person she'd kill was herself, then it's an issue between her and her maker. But you can't be sure of that, can you? She may kill a passenger (or more than one), and she may kill people not in her airplane. Me? I'd report her. I've been called a "tattle-tale" countless ways by now, by people who would rather die than improve the safety record, and I'm used to it. Be aware that plenty of people will disapprove of you if you do tell. But ultimately, only you can decide what the right course of action is for you to take. At the very least though, you ought to file an ASRS report. This was clearly a hazardous situation, in which a single pilot managed to disrupt a busy fly-in, and it's the sort of thing that belongs in NASA's database. Pete |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
The question of whether you should depends on your own ethics..."Michael"
obviously feels it's none of your concern. I disagree...as I've said before in similar situations, if you could be sure the only person she'd kill was herself, then it's an issue between her and her maker. But you can't be sure of that, can you? She may kill a passenger (or more than one), and she may kill people not in her airplane. I had a similar siutation. I solo'd just before moving to Germany so my radio skills were limited and XC time was zilch. My housemate in Germany, myself and his pilot friend went up. We flew around southern Germany and then to Salzburg. From my memory, things the guy did that was clearly dangerous. 1. was going to take off without a checklist. he accidently found it while taxiing. 2. I don't recall him doing a full pre-flight. 3. was quite lost going into Salzburg despite a Garmin 430 4. Through in full flaps flying into Salzburg Class C airport with numerous planes barrelling down our ass. he could have easily thrown in full flaps after crossing the numbers at 1000 AGL considering it was a 9000 (?) foot runway. 5. he landed maybe 1 inch past the numbers and then proceeded to roll down the runway to the FBO 4000 feet past the numbers rather than landing very long. 6. on departure from Salzburg, couldn't follow basic radio commands, "contact departure on xxx.xx, squawk YYYY" 7. got lost going back at night until Munich approach (not sure of the names, BTW) said "Cessna XXXXX, if you are going to Augsburg, wouldn't you want to turn by now." 8. MUC approach got on his ass for busting the class B (I'm guessing) airspace. 9. (not in order) on approach into Rosenheim, I was in the back of the 172 and remember treetops flying by at our height on both sides so we were very damn low. that is what I remember. I remember there were more. Well my housemate and I recently flew from the bay area down to Santa barbara. He commented that I'm a lot more precise flier with my 115 hours and half way through a IFR ticket than his friend with 250+ hours of VFR. I didn't want to bad mouth his friend until my old housemate told me they went flying with 2 smallish women over the Alps at 12000 feet. I wondered what the density altitude was and how much AGL they were. Apparently there wasn't much. Then my old housemate, granted he is NOT a pilot, said they had a serious close call on final back at their home airport in Augsburg due to language problems. I didn't get into it but it would not surprise me whatsoever. This guy is simply scary, downright dangerous to not only himself but his passengers and other airplanes/people. After I returned to the US while finishing my PPL, I saw something like that with a Mooney in the pattern. The guy left the pattern but then returned 20 minutes later. I said to my CFI, "you watch him. I fly." nevertheless the guy busted into the pattern at a controlled Class D airport and then came within 200 feet of landing on someone, then couldn't follow directions to climb to 1200 (pattern is at 800 and SFO Class B at 1500) and circle. I was in no immediate danger but if he almost landed on me, I'd demand a write up of him. IMHO, if this person is as bad as you desribe, I'd report them. Gerald |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
You should call the FSDO. If your description is accurate, this person
shouldn't be flying. Mike MU-2 "tony roberts" wrote in message news:nospam-7E8DDE.22231620062004@shawnews... I have to make a decision that could have a big impact on a fellow pilot and I would appreciate knowing what you would do in my situation - Here are the basic facts: Today I, along with a pilot passenger (witness) went to a fly-in - lots of planes arriving in short time frame. Active runway was 14, lh downwind, circuit height 3000 ft. We called 5 miles out (procedure) and received a response from another pilot "Joining 17 in 2 minutes". I responded, "are you arriving xxx airport - there is no 17" Response - "sorry I meant 35". I reply, there is no 35 - the runways are 14 and 32. 14 is active, downwind is lh, circuit is 3000 ft. Response - circling over 35 losing altitude. Me - I am approaching threshold of 32 at 3000ft to join downwind left 14. There is no 35 and you should not be descending over the runway. Response - I am at 5500 descending for 35. Me - I repeat this airport is 14 and 32 - circuit height is 3000 ft. We are about to cross midfield to join downwind left 14. Response - Sorry I meant 32 - I am on downwind left 32. (32 if it was active - is downwind right) Me - You are on head on collision course with me- I am in immediate emergency descent and crossing to midfield (no choice - mountains in other direction) Response - Well - I'm trying to land here! Huh? Me - XXX Radio - are you guys listening to this? I could really use your help here right now (I admit - I got VERY rattled) XXX Radio - Errr aircraft xxx active is downwind left 14. So I land. And then this plane comes in and bounces nose wheel to mains - 4 or 5 times. So I'm out of the plane and I meet a friend who arrived before me. And that was when I found out that our radio calls had been broadcast via loudspeakers to over 1000 spectators. And my friend said, "I am really embarrassed about this, because I have been trying to help this pilot (who has a PPL and over 100 hours) but she is totally clueless. So the pilot now taxis next to my friends aircraft , taxis into the grass/soft dirt - gets stuck trying to turn, applys FULL power and sprays the side of my friends aircraft with dirt & stones - and keeps doing it - because she is so clueless she doesn't know what she is doing. Moving forward - I watched her depart. Radio at taxiway - Aircraft calling on final - which airport are you landing at - I kid you not. Aircraft on final - 14 XXX He lands. Another aircraft calls final 14 xxx Response - Aircraft on final - which airport are you landing at? Aircraft on final - 14 XXX And yet another aircraft calls final. "Listen - I'm waiting to take off here" He lands. She has about 8 aircraft behind her. Now she does her runup. Her call - XXX taking off. (No runway - just taking off). Of the approx 500 aircraft that took off here today, this was the ONLY one that didn't backtrack. With nosewheel up way to soon for density altitude she took off, stall horn wailing as she skimmed the trees and departed for home. Would you report her - or would you forget it? I'm having a hard time thinking of reporting her, I'll have a harder time if I do nothing and she crashes next week. What would you do? Thanks Tony -- Tony Roberts PP-ASEL VFR OTT Night Almost Instrument ![]() Cessna 172H C-GICE |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
tony roberts wrote in news:nospam-7E8DDE.22231620062004
@shawnews: What would you do? Thanks Tony Im a new pilot here but with what I have been taught in the past and reading what you wrote.... I would have socked her right in the mouth the moment she stepped out of her plane. I then would have cut her tire so that the idiot couldnt take off again.. but thats just me with 16 hours in a plane and a lifetime of dealing with idiots :-) |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
How do you know her stall horn was wailing? Why did you fly a right
downwind for 14, then make a right turn to cross midfield for a left downwind for 14. "tony roberts" wrote in message news:nospam-7E8DDE.22231620062004@shawnews... I have to make a decision that could have a big impact on a fellow pilot and I would appreciate knowing what you would do in my situation - Here are the basic facts: Today I, along with a pilot passenger (witness) went to a fly-in - lots of planes arriving in short time frame. Active runway was 14, lh downwind, circuit height 3000 ft. We called 5 miles out (procedure) and received a response from another pilot "Joining 17 in 2 minutes". I responded, "are you arriving xxx airport - there is no 17" Response - "sorry I meant 35". I reply, there is no 35 - the runways are 14 and 32. 14 is active, downwind is lh, circuit is 3000 ft. Response - circling over 35 losing altitude. Me - I am approaching threshold of 32 at 3000ft to join downwind left 14. There is no 35 and you should not be descending over the runway. Response - I am at 5500 descending for 35. Me - I repeat this airport is 14 and 32 - circuit height is 3000 ft. We are about to cross midfield to join downwind left 14. Response - Sorry I meant 32 - I am on downwind left 32. (32 if it was active - is downwind right) Me - You are on head on collision course with me- I am in immediate emergency descent and crossing to midfield (no choice - mountains in other direction) Response - Well - I'm trying to land here! Huh? Me - XXX Radio - are you guys listening to this? I could really use your help here right now (I admit - I got VERY rattled) XXX Radio - Errr aircraft xxx active is downwind left 14. So I land. And then this plane comes in and bounces nose wheel to mains - 4 or 5 times. So I'm out of the plane and I meet a friend who arrived before me. And that was when I found out that our radio calls had been broadcast via loudspeakers to over 1000 spectators. And my friend said, "I am really embarrassed about this, because I have been trying to help this pilot (who has a PPL and over 100 hours) but she is totally clueless. So the pilot now taxis next to my friends aircraft , taxis into the grass/soft dirt - gets stuck trying to turn, applys FULL power and sprays the side of my friends aircraft with dirt & stones - and keeps doing it - because she is so clueless she doesn't know what she is doing. Moving forward - I watched her depart. Radio at taxiway - Aircraft calling on final - which airport are you landing at - I kid you not. Aircraft on final - 14 XXX He lands. Another aircraft calls final 14 xxx Response - Aircraft on final - which airport are you landing at? Aircraft on final - 14 XXX And yet another aircraft calls final. "Listen - I'm waiting to take off here" He lands. She has about 8 aircraft behind her. Now she does her runup. Her call - XXX taking off. (No runway - just taking off). Of the approx 500 aircraft that took off here today, this was the ONLY one that didn't backtrack. With nosewheel up way to soon for density altitude she took off, stall horn wailing as she skimmed the trees and departed for home. Would you report her - or would you forget it? I'm having a hard time thinking of reporting her, I'll have a harder time if I do nothing and she crashes next week. What would you do? Thanks Tony -- Tony Roberts PP-ASEL VFR OTT Night Almost Instrument ![]() Cessna 172H C-GICE |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
![]() Report her. She might not deserve the favor, and she might not appreciate it, but it might be the best thing you could do for her, any passengers she might carry, and the safety of GA as a whole. -c "tony roberts" wrote in message news:nospam-7E8DDE.22231620062004@shawnews... I have to make a decision that could have a big impact on a fellow pilot and I would appreciate knowing what you would do in my situation - Here are the basic facts: Today I, along with a pilot passenger (witness) went to a fly-in - lots of planes arriving in short time frame. Active runway was 14, lh downwind, circuit height 3000 ft. We called 5 miles out (procedure) and received a response from another pilot "Joining 17 in 2 minutes". I responded, "are you arriving xxx airport - there is no 17" Response - "sorry I meant 35". I reply, there is no 35 - the runways are 14 and 32. 14 is active, downwind is lh, circuit is 3000 ft. Response - circling over 35 losing altitude. Me - I am approaching threshold of 32 at 3000ft to join downwind left 14. There is no 35 and you should not be descending over the runway. Response - I am at 5500 descending for 35. Me - I repeat this airport is 14 and 32 - circuit height is 3000 ft. We are about to cross midfield to join downwind left 14. Response - Sorry I meant 32 - I am on downwind left 32. (32 if it was active - is downwind right) Me - You are on head on collision course with me- I am in immediate emergency descent and crossing to midfield (no choice - mountains in other direction) Response - Well - I'm trying to land here! Huh? Me - XXX Radio - are you guys listening to this? I could really use your help here right now (I admit - I got VERY rattled) XXX Radio - Errr aircraft xxx active is downwind left 14. So I land. And then this plane comes in and bounces nose wheel to mains - 4 or 5 times. So I'm out of the plane and I meet a friend who arrived before me. And that was when I found out that our radio calls had been broadcast via loudspeakers to over 1000 spectators. And my friend said, "I am really embarrassed about this, because I have been trying to help this pilot (who has a PPL and over 100 hours) but she is totally clueless. So the pilot now taxis next to my friends aircraft , taxis into the grass/soft dirt - gets stuck trying to turn, applys FULL power and sprays the side of my friends aircraft with dirt & stones - and keeps doing it - because she is so clueless she doesn't know what she is doing. Moving forward - I watched her depart. Radio at taxiway - Aircraft calling on final - which airport are you landing at - I kid you not. Aircraft on final - 14 XXX He lands. Another aircraft calls final 14 xxx Response - Aircraft on final - which airport are you landing at? Aircraft on final - 14 XXX And yet another aircraft calls final. "Listen - I'm waiting to take off here" He lands. She has about 8 aircraft behind her. Now she does her runup. Her call - XXX taking off. (No runway - just taking off). Of the approx 500 aircraft that took off here today, this was the ONLY one that didn't backtrack. With nosewheel up way to soon for density altitude she took off, stall horn wailing as she skimmed the trees and departed for home. Would you report her - or would you forget it? I'm having a hard time thinking of reporting her, I'll have a harder time if I do nothing and she crashes next week. What would you do? Thanks Tony -- Tony Roberts PP-ASEL VFR OTT Night Almost Instrument ![]() Cessna 172H C-GICE |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
What does "report her" mean? Why should the FSDO care what I say when I
"report" a fellow pilot? Is there a procedure for this? I don't know - I just don't like the idea that an overly officious fellow pilot would decide to "report me" if they were unhappy with my piloting. A few weeks ago I was accosted on the ramp by a pilot who was upset that I used too much runway in my landing and caused him to go around. (I didn't say anything, but I kind of wondered why he was following me so closely around the pattern.) The jerk was yelling at me that if I couldn't land shorter than that I shouldn't be landing at "his" airport. I can just picture him "reporting" me, and having to deal with a FSDO investigation or some such thing. Michael "gatt" wrote in message ... Report her. She might not deserve the favor, and she might not appreciate it, but it might be the best thing you could do for her, any passengers she might carry, and the safety of GA as a whole. -c \ |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
"Michael 182" wrote in message
news:cwGBc.70661$Hg2.7085@attbi_s04... What does "report her" mean? Why should the FSDO care what I say when I "report" a fellow pilot? They are the ones in charge of enforcing the FARs. Is there a procedure for this? Pick up the phone, dial the number, tell them what you saw and heard. I don't know - I just don't like the idea that an overly officious fellow pilot would decide to "report me" if they were unhappy with my piloting. Me either. But still, what else are you going to do? How do you feel about calling the police if someone breaks into your house? I mean, you wouldn't want YOUR neighbor calling the police tell them YOU broke into THEIR house, would you? By your logic, you ought to just ignore the guy breaking into your own house. [...] I can just picture him "reporting" me, and having to deal with a FSDO investigation or some such thing. Had he reported you, I doubt anything of substance would have happened. In any case, you can always sue him for slander. Pete |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|