Verifying flap retraction

roger that.. and on the touch and go.. flaps up.. look over both shoulder
for movement or "verify both up".. then power up..

BT

"Brian Burger" wrote in message
.tc.ca...
On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, BTIZ wrote:

I've been looking over my shoulder at Cessna flaps on retract during
touch
and goes for 30 yrs... when did they stop teaching "verify"

'They' haven't, at least as of 2002 at my (Canadian) flying club. Shoulder
check one side in flight, and when you're putting the flaps back up after
engine start, check *both* sides to make sure they're moving in synch.

Brian.


BT

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself climbing
out
of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had
frozen
at
20 degrees on our 172.

I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed
how
easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the
flaps go
down but then fail to retract.

This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling
in
the
glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes
and go
arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap
settings
is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to
safety as
doing stalls.

--

Roger Long

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:jBzUc.105612$xk.30749@fed1read01...
roger that.. and on the touch and go.. flaps up.. look over both shoulder
for movement or "verify both up".. then power up..

BT

Exactly what I've been taught as well.

Jay

As long as we are at it, the Cessna POH says on go around or any takeoff
with flaps that you should "raise flaps slowly" upon reaching a safe
altitude and airspeed.

AFAIK the flap motor has only one speed.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
As long as we are at it, the Cessna POH says on go around or any takeoff
with flaps that you should "raise flaps slowly" upon reaching a safe
altitude and airspeed.

AFAIK the flap motor has only one speed.

Perhaps that means one notch at a time. I'm sure you don't need the
litany, CJ. Or were you trolling?

Casey Wilson wrote:
"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

As long as we are at it, the Cessna POH says on go around or any takeoff
with flaps that you should "raise flaps slowly" upon reaching a safe
altitude and airspeed.

AFAIK the flap motor has only one speed.


Perhaps that means one notch at a time. I'm sure you don't need the
litany, CJ. Or were you trolling?

And without the preselect type electric flaps you bump it up a little at
a time.

"Casey Wilson" wrote in message
...

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
As long as we are at it, the Cessna POH says on go around or any takeoff
with flaps that you should "raise flaps slowly" upon reaching a safe
altitude and airspeed.

AFAIK the flap motor has only one speed.

Perhaps that means one notch at a time. I'm sure you don't need the
litany, CJ. Or were you trolling?

What? Me troll? :-)

Yes, perhaps that is what it means. However, takeoffs with more than 10
degrees of flaps are prohibited. If you go around, the expanded procedures
say to raise the flaps immediately to 10 degrees. Then, when a safe altitude
and airspeed are reached, raise the flaps the remaining 10 degrees slowly. I
am speaking here specifically of the S model, though the discussion applies
equally well to others.

In article ,
"C J Campbell" wrote:



Yes, perhaps that is what it means. However, takeoffs with more than 10
degrees of flaps are prohibited. If you go around, the expanded procedures
say to raise the flaps immediately to 10 degrees. Then, when a safe altitude
and airspeed are reached, raise the flaps the remaining 10 degrees slowly. I
am speaking here specifically of the S model, though the discussion applies
equally well to others.


On the 180, 182, 185 and 206 20 degrees flaps are used for takeoff.

With the 172s I've flown the go around/balked landing procedure was
flaps immediately to 20 then further retraction in increments.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

Dale wrote:




On the 180, 182, 185 and 206 20 degrees flaps are used for takeoff.

Up to 20 degrees. You don't need them at all if you are light or the
runway is long.

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:27:26 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself climbing out
of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had frozen at
20 degrees on our 172.

My only flap indicator, other than the feel of the airplane is looking
out the window. It has no flap indicator and the switch is up, down,
or off with up and down being momentary. There is no trim change at
all when going from no flaps to full flaps in the Deb. OTOH there is
a large trim change with a change in speed.


I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed how
easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the flaps go
down but then fail to retract.

Many years ago on my first solo cross country I was landing at
Cadillac MI. This was in the winter and Cadillac has snow. The
runway is like being in a canyon. You can not see over the snow or
even who is on the the taxiway.

At any rate, Goose down jacket, fleece lined leather gloves, long
snuggies, knit cap, and insulated boots were mandatory in that old
150. I was turning final and pushed the flap switch all the way down.
As I was making the turn I had to pull back more than usual to hold
altitude and the speed was increasing like crazy. I thought, "this
feels just like the flaps are retracting". I looked over my shoulder
in time to see them move flush with the ailerons. If you pushed the
flap switch all the way down and let your finger slip off that spring
loaded flap switch could snap all the way through off into the up
position. It did.

Never having come down final quite that fast I decided my pride could
wait while I went around and did a final at a normal speed. (and
caught up with the airplane)

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling in the
glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes and go
arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap settings
is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to safety as
doing stalls.

I'm not generally one to take my own advice (knowing the source as I do) but
I decided to make an exception in this case.

I took our 172 N (160 hp, 1966 lbs as loaded) out up 3400 foot density
altitude and set up in approach configuration with 20 degrees of flaps. When
I reached mid flare speed, I put in full power. Trimmed as for my usual
landing (I trim at midfield and leave it alone as I like a bit of pressure
on the yoke to work against) there was enough pitch up that speed could
bleed off pretty fast if you were flying by yoke feel and not really on top
of it.

If you are one of those who trim all pressure off on short final, you'd have
even more yoke pressure to deal with. 500 fpm climb was achieved pretty
quickly but at enough lower airspeed that the climb gradient would be a
concern in a marginal situation.

I climbed up 2000 feet without seeing any significant drop off in vertical
speed. The plane was quite controllable and easy to handle once some nose
trim was rolled in. Then I set it up again with 30 degrees of flaps.

There was more pitch up with 30 degrees and the need to hold the nose down
to pick up airspeed. It took a long time for the airspeed to come up to
where I could establish a good climb rate. A mid length runway would
disappear real fast. Once I had the speed, I could get back to 500 fpm climb
and had no trouble doing a climbing turn up another 1000 feet. You wouldn't
want to be doing this in a tight spot among hills though.

With 40 degrees of flaps, the plane didn't climb at all when the throttle
was pushed forward. A slight relaxation of the yoke as you might do when
starting a go around with that much yoke pressure caused the airspeed to
drop instantly. Pushing the nose over to build up speed created an immediate
20 foot sink followed by a painfully slow building of airspeed. I must have
used up a couple of short field lengths before I got enough speed to work
into a climb and had to roll in a good bit of nose trim.

250 fpm was the best climb I could manage. There was a noticeable buffet at
60 knots and dropping the nose didn't change the airspeed much. I was able
to climb 500 feet and turn but it would have hair raising with terrain
around.

If you lose flap function at the 40 degree setting going into a short and
obstructed field, you are going to have to make some very rapid lifestyle
choices. Go into the tree trunks at the speed you can slow down to in an
emergency abort or into the softer tops at 60 knots might be the two best
picks. You have two seconds to make up your mind.

Flap failure at 30 degrees in these conditions would be still be enough
excitement for any day.

This is one of those things that makes you realize how much is sometimes
riding on toy quality components assembled in third world countries by bored
workers. If there is any doubt about your flap function at all (just being
in a post 1976 Cessna could qualify for that) aggressive slipping with 10
degrees of flaps into tight fields has a lot more to recommend it than I
thought previously.

--

Roger Long



"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself climbing out
of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had frozen
at
20 degrees on our 172.

I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed how
easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the flaps go
down but then fail to retract.

This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling in
the
glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes and go
arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap
settings
is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to safety as
doing stalls.

--

Roger Long