Can't buy them all, choosing between ASW19 vs LS1 vs PIK20

On Saturday, 7 November 2015 04:33:48 UTC+2, Christopher Giacomo wrote:
On Friday, November 6, 2015 at 11:05:31 AM UTC-5, PAGA wrote:
Are there any owners of DG-100 here who would be willing to discuss privately with me about what kind of pricing I should consider when bidding for used one? Kindly send me a private email if you do. Thanks

Just Wondering, what turned you off of the Pik? Was it the wet wings stories or the problem supporting major fiberglass repairs? I'm starting a similar search, so this thread has been very helpful.
Chris

If "major fiberglass repair" means that you need to borrow moulds from factory, I bet you are out of luck with any of these gliders. Price of these is so low that insurance companies won't pay for major repairs. Even broken tail resulting from ground loop can be more expensive to repair than insured hull value. And why repair when you can buy similar glider in one piece from used market? All these gliders mentioned have simple GRP structure, minor damage is easily repaired.

You are correct about pricing, of course, but I wouldn't expect to see
many ADs or service bulletins for ships whose manufacturers are no
longer around and I think a 30 year old glider is fully depreciated.
Any decent shop should be able to make repair parts, if needed. Storage
can be in your back yard (assuming you have one). I used to bring my
glider into my walk-out basement over the winter to apply all the TLC
that it deserved.

Bottom line is that the price is what the market will bear regardless of
what the seller paid unless it's really priced for quick sale.

On 11/8/2015 8:28 PM, PAGA wrote:
Yes but I have found that some sellers think the price someone should pay is equal to "how much money they put in their [beloved] ship". While it's a good thing to know they loved their glider and probably took great care of it, hoping to recover 100% of the money you put in it is plain naive and ignoring depreciation and the fact that better gliders are now available at the price they paid for their ship 5 or 7 years ago. And the ship they bought 5 years ago is now 5 years older, probably has new ADs to comply with, some cables to change, a higher probability for some unexpected maintenance, etc... Also winter is coming, someone needs to pay for storage for a few months, at least here out East :-)

--
Dan, 5J

On Monday, November 9, 2015 at 11:11:56 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
... but I wouldn't expect to
see many ADs or service bulletins for ships whose manufacturers are
no longer around and I think a 30 year old glider is fully
depreciated.* Any decent shop should be able to make repair parts,
if needed.* Storage can be in your back yard (assuming you have
one).* ...
Dan, 5J

That's a very good point, it's like for classic cars: all you need is to know a good trustworthy local mechanic and to maintain a clean/safe storage/garage.

Well, it turns out it's easier to shop locally: a gentleman in my area made me an offer I could not refuse and I have abandoned all my previous plans (see thread above) because I am now due to send the paperwork for my registering/transferring ownership (to me) of a very nice LS-3a, in a pristine trailer, both located one hour drive from my main residence, and next to a really good airfield for ridge soaring all year round. Thank you all for your inputs here, I look forward to read you all further, especially those of you who will give good advices about the LS-3a :-)

Cheers

I had a nice Pik 20 and put about 650 hours on it with zero problems. Two suggestions:
Before flying an all-flap glider ask someone to put you in the back seat of a Super Cub and get them to fly (at altitude) at approach speed and put the flaps down so that you get used to the stick pressure required. A nice guy did this for me and the effect was remarkably similar.
Rain and Pik 20 is a well known story and some experimentation in conveniently sized rain showers showed the tales to be true. The Pik when wet will tend to descend very rapidly. A Finnish glider pilot who once was a partner owning a Pik 20 gave me this suggestion: lower the flaps a little (about 8-12 degrees from distant memory) and the problem goes away. OK the glider then doesn't fly that well, but it stops sinking like a brick. Proved this during my experiments.
But then how often do we fly in rain? Not often and this Finnish trick works. Bugs do have an impact on performance but from flying in MD/PA and on bug laden ridges, nothing to be concerned about.
The best bit about a Pik 20 is being able to land in a very tiny piece of field and being certain that it is exceedingly well built with a big strong gear, so rough is less of a problem than with many gliders. Oh and minor dings can be easily fixed with paint. The factory trailer isn't bad either.
So do not discount them. PS: they also go well too.




On Friday, October 16, 2015 at 8:51:58 AM UTC-6, PAGA wrote:
Hi all,

After a long break from gliders, last year I moved close to an airfield and resumed flying at the local soaring club on Blanik metal 2-seaters. While this is always a lot of fun I am tempted to finally get my own one-seater and start practice longer flights, with slightly better performance than the L23, and also maybe take it on the road to fly elsewhere in the US.

Most of my previous one-seater experience was on Grob 102, both in Europe and in the US : I was looking for a used one and missed a local sale by a few weeks/days. While searching other available used ships not too far from me, within the set performances and the price range I want to commit to, I have narrowed it down to a PIK20, or a LS-1 or an ASW19, in similar conditions and within my parameters (L/D, sink rate, instruments, size, weight, type, etc... i.e. similar to the Grob) and price range (+/- a few $K).

This is the first time I am considering owning my own ship, and I am sure this forum has seen this kind of question a million times (apologies for the duplicate thread) I searched some of these threads but I need to ask a more experience crowd about my specific choice : how to decide between these 3 fine sailplanes, what should I do/ask/check with the sellers in order avoid obvious mistakes and make it easier to decide?

My main concerns are very "grounded" : how to deal with maintenance (when the manufacturer is no longer around for example), and how hard/easy is it to assemble/store them back in the trailer. Of course I am sure these ships handle differently when in the air but I am not too concerned about learning how to deal with each flying specifics/idiosyncrasy, at this point I feel most of my challenges are actually going to be when on land :-)

Thank you all for your time.

On Monday, November 9, 2015 at 11:11:56 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
I wouldn't expect to see many ADs or service bulletins for ships whose manufacturers are no longer around

and that is an advantage or disadvantage?

Dif'rent strokes for dif'rent folks.

Consider that the aircraft was found to be acceptable to the approving
authority at the time of its creation and was still considered airworthy
when the manufacturer faded into history. At some point the owner has
to decide if he is comfortable flying the aircraft. The owner of the
hangar where I keep my glider is restoring a 65-year old airplane. From
my observation it will be better than original. So what if there's no
manufacturer to tell him that it's safe to fly? He will make that
decision himself and will present it to an inspector for an
airworthiness certificate. I have no doubt it will be approved. It
will be up to him thereafter (and to subsequent owners) to decide that
the aircraft is safe to operate.

And, to your original question, I consider it an advantage.

Cheers!
Dan

On 11/30/2015 12:49 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Monday, November 9, 2015 at 11:11:56 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
I wouldn't expect to see many ADs or service bulletins for ships whose manufacturers are no longer around
and that is an advantage or disadvantage?

--
Dan, 5J