An ADS-B In Question

On Saturday, January 16, 2016 at 9:58:24 AM UTC-6, Vaughn Simon wrote:
On 1/15/2016 6:48 PM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
some of the "cellphone issues" are NOT SSA RC OR US FAA issues, they are (yet another entity) FCC rules.

Quote chapter and verse of the FCC rule(s) you are referencing.

Vaughn

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx....1.1.2.8.27.12

Title 47, chapter 1, subchapter B, part 22, subpart H, 22.925.

§22.925 Prohibition on airborne operation of cellular telephones.

Cellular telephones installed in or carried aboard airplanes, balloons or any other type of aircraft must not be operated while such aircraft are airborne (not touching the ground). When any aircraft leaves the ground, all cellular telephones on board that aircraft must be turned off. The following notice must be posted on or near each cellular telephone installed in any aircraft:

"The use of cellular telephones while this aircraft is airborne is prohibited by FCC rules, and the violation of this rule could result in suspension of service and/or a fine. The use of cellular telephones while this aircraft is on the ground is subject to FAA regulations."

Dear Sean,

Were you never taught that loaded words, inflammatory comments, and
hysteria do not foster discussion?

This thread was started to discuss open source software and COTS
hardware and their possible use as an ADS-B solution. None of the
following were intended to be introduced to the discussion: Flarm,
stealth mode, contest flying, SSA, Rules Committee, and so forth.
Continuing to raise these subjects clouds the original intent.

Happy Flying,

Dan

On 1/15/2016 1:41 PM, smfidler wrote:
The US rules committee, and their puppet masters (otherwise known as the "SSA anti-technology oligarchy"), still won't allow smartphones to be "used" in our gliders during contests. Weather apps or even situational awareness beyond roughly 30 seconds with PowerFlarm (non-stealth/competition mode) is currently scheduled to become illegal.

Only recently did the USRC even allow the smartphone back in the cockpit at all, but only under strict orders never to use it! This even though most US pilots probably use a smartphone-based navigation app such as XC soar, iGlide or other similar. This whole thing is starting to get irritating.

They use words like "weak-assed." They use words like "tradition." They use phrases like "the spirit of soaring..."

This is the problem. Our anti-tech oligarchies "feelings" on the subject of new technology. This oligarchy are a relative few among us. Most of us dont care about weather, ADSB and smartphones. Some find it cool, and fun. Yet they drag us against the rising tide requiring tremendous effort to hold any ground.

I certainly have a good working knowledge of most of these new technologies. I rarely if ever have a need to bother with them. Again, the typical max range is 3 miles and I have a solid antenna installation in my glider. I honestly believe that trying to fly a task based on cellular or ADSB weather is going to be a very rare occurrence. And it also has a safety benefit. This seems to almost always be disregarded.

The problem IS NOT the natural progression of cost effective, relevant flight "data" and situational awareness & anti-collision technology. The problem is the feelings of a relative few.

And it's taking 10x the effort to prevent these technologies from entering the glider cockpit than will ever be gained from it. Particularly in the US contest environment.

In fact, if any of the oligarchs spent 1/4 the time studying ADSB as they do trying to promote stealth mode Flarm and demonize those who like PowerFlarm as it is, they would probably already be more proficient than most of us.



--
Dan, 5J

On Saturday, January 16, 2016 at 8:35:09 AM UTC-6, Mike Schumann wrote:

Do you really want to spend your money investing in equipment from a company with this kind of attitude?

(lots of bogus arguments clipped)

I preferred (4 years ago) to spend my money on equipment that worked (then and now) as advertised, instead of on expensive equipment that only puts out a half-baked solution and is still in flux.

If most ADS-B out installations end up being 1090ES, PF is the obvious solution SINCE IT WILL SHOW THEM ALL TODAY! For those who need weather info, then a cheap UAT in will fill that square.

As far as collision avoidance for gliders (which is a totally different problem than traffic seperation of power traffic), ADS-B is not a solution. It's designed for ATC use, not pilot self deconfliction (It's NOT TCAS!).

Sounds like a nice rig you are getting, have fun with it!

Kirk
66

On Saturday, January 16, 2016 at 10:25:04 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:

I was wondering if, feeding XCSoar from PowerFlarm, and an alert
arises, does XCSoar automatically zoom to the correct scale to
display the threat?* What if you're in a thermal with very high zoom
factor, say 1 km, and a high energy glider is approaching.* You're
climbing, he's descending and below you, and may simply pass through
your thermal on his way to non-leeching glory.* But what if he pulls
up?* Now there's an immediate threat alert (a pop-up) since your
zoom level did not allow you to see him coming.* Of course you were
looking outside and saw him coming a reasonable distance away, but
he was looking inside and might be unaware of your presence.

Dan, PF uses two distinct displays - a "map" that shows flarm and 1090ES ADS-B traffic in the vicinity (as well as a PCAS-like warning - alt diff and approx range - of transponder traffic nearby, similar to the MRX), and a "collision warning" display (circle of dots for direction of threat, bars above or below for alt diff) that replaces the situational awareness map when a collision potential between flarm equipped gliders is detected. Not sure how XCSoar is implemented, but my Oudie2/SYM and SN10 both mimic the dedicated, small flarm display. Plus you get audio warnings...

So, unless you are in Stealth mode (oh no not that again!!!) you have plenty of time to monitor your "radar" display for approaching traffic", and should not be surprised if a collision warning pops up (due to an aggressive thermal entry, for example).

As to what PF gives you that your PCAS doesn't, that's simple - 1090ES ADS-B traffic - which is pretty much all the fast movers that you are trying to scare off with your transponder. So now you can watch them "do the chicken" when their TCAS goes off! Of course, you are working on getting that with your "science project".

And it's a nice logger and GPS source for the rest of the glider toys.

Kirk
66

On Saturday, January 16, 2016 at 10:41:56 AM UTC-6, w

Title 47, chapter 1, subchapter B, part 22, subpart H, 22.925.

§22.925 Prohibition on airborne operation of cellular telephones.

Cellular telephones installed in or carried aboard airplanes, balloons or any other type of aircraft must not be operated while such aircraft are airborne (not touching the ground). When any aircraft leaves the ground, all cellular telephones on board that aircraft must be turned off. The following notice must be posted on or near each cellular telephone installed in any aircraft:

"The use of cellular telephones while this aircraft is airborne is prohibited by FCC rules, and the violation of this rule could result in suspension of service and/or a fine. The use of cellular telephones while this aircraft is on the ground is subject to FAA regulations."

Seems to me the RC and contest CDs have no business prohibiting the carriage of cellphones, and their use is already prohibited by statute.

I'll keep on carrying mine, thank you.

Kirk
66

On Saturday, January 16, 2016 at 12:37:53 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
On Saturday, January 16, 2016 at 10:41:56 AM UTC-6, w

Title 47, chapter 1, subchapter B, part 22, subpart H, 22.925.

§22.925 Prohibition on airborne operation of cellular telephones.

Cellular telephones installed in or carried aboard airplanes, balloons or any other type of aircraft must not be operated while such aircraft are airborne (not touching the ground). When any aircraft leaves the ground, all cellular telephones on board that aircraft must be turned off. The following notice must be posted on or near each cellular telephone installed in any aircraft:

"The use of cellular telephones while this aircraft is airborne is prohibited by FCC rules, and the violation of this rule could result in suspension of service and/or a fine. The use of cellular telephones while this aircraft is on the ground is subject to FAA regulations."

Seems to me the RC and contest CDs have no business prohibiting the carriage of cellphones, and their use is already prohibited by statute.

I'll keep on carrying mine, thank you.

Kirk
66

I will too. Turned off as it should be.
Text of applicable rule that has been in place for quite a long time(following portions excerpted):

6.6.3 Carrying any two-way communication device is prohibited, with the following exceptions, each of which must be a standard,
commercially available model that is not used to provide any in-flight capabilities beyond those referenced below:
6.6.3.1 An aircraft-band VHF radio
6.6.3.2 An aircraft transponder
6.6.3.3 A wireless telephone (which is not to be used during flight)

UH

Kirk,

I reviewed the XCSoar documentation and, it appears that its Flarm
traffic display is only really useable when zoomed in as in thermalling,
not the normal 40-60 miles where I keep my screen during cruise. At
greater distances, all Flarm traffic would simply be a blob around the
own ship symbol. I can look some more, but it doesn't appear that
displaying ADS-B In traffic on XCSoar /running on a Dell Streak 5/,
which is what I use, will be working.

Unless I'm missing something, I currently "see" 1090ES traffic with my
PCAS if it's within 5 NM horizontally and 2,000' vertically when it
squawks in reply to ATC interrogation. I saw an airliner do the funky
chicken once before I had a transponder (and before Flarm existed). I
was glad they were looking outside! I had them in sight but the closure
was pretty quick.

On 1/16/2016 10:35 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
On Saturday, January 16, 2016 at 10:25:04 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:

I was wondering if, feeding XCSoar from PowerFlarm, and an alert
arises, does XCSoar automatically zoom to the correct scale to
display the threat? What if you're in a thermal with very high zoom
factor, say 1 km, and a high energy glider is approaching. You're
climbing, he's descending and below you, and may simply pass through
your thermal on his way to non-leeching glory. But what if he pulls
up? Now there's an immediate threat alert (a pop-up) since your
zoom level did not allow you to see him coming. Of course you were
looking outside and saw him coming a reasonable distance away, but
he was looking inside and might be unaware of your presence.
Dan, PF uses two distinct displays - a "map" that shows flarm and 1090ES ADS-B traffic in the vicinity (as well as a PCAS-like warning - alt diff and approx range - of transponder traffic nearby, similar to the MRX), and a "collision warning" display (circle of dots for direction of threat, bars above or below for alt diff) that replaces the situational awareness map when a collision potential between flarm equipped gliders is detected. Not sure how XCSoar is implemented, but my Oudie2/SYM and SN10 both mimic the dedicated, small flarm display. Plus you get audio warnings...

So, unless you are in Stealth mode (oh no not that again!!!) you have plenty of time to monitor your "radar" display for approaching traffic", and should not be surprised if a collision warning pops up (due to an aggressive thermal entry, for example).

As to what PF gives you that your PCAS doesn't, that's simple - 1090ES ADS-B traffic - which is pretty much all the fast movers that you are trying to scare off with your transponder. So now you can watch them "do the chicken" when their TCAS goes off! Of course, you are working on getting that with your "science project".

And it's a nice logger and GPS source for the rest of the glider toys.

Kirk
66

--
Dan, 5J

I either set my Android phone to airplane mode or simply turn it off.
It also has the benefit of saving the battery should I need it later.

On 1/16/2016 12:10 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, January 16, 2016 at 12:37:53 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
On Saturday, January 16, 2016 at 10:41:56 AM UTC-6, w

Title 47, chapter 1, subchapter B, part 22, subpart H, 22.925.

§22.925 Prohibition on airborne operation of cellular telephones.

Cellular telephones installed in or carried aboard airplanes, balloons or any other type of aircraft must not be operated while such aircraft are airborne (not touching the ground). When any aircraft leaves the ground, all cellular telephones on board that aircraft must be turned off. The following notice must be posted on or near each cellular telephone installed in any aircraft:

"The use of cellular telephones while this aircraft is airborne is prohibited by FCC rules, and the violation of this rule could result in suspension of service and/or a fine. The use of cellular telephones while this aircraft is on the ground is subject to FAA regulations."
Seems to me the RC and contest CDs have no business prohibiting the carriage of cellphones, and their use is already prohibited by statute.

I'll keep on carrying mine, thank you.

Kirk
66
I will too. Turned off as it should be.
Text of applicable rule that has been in place for quite a long time(following portions excerpted):

6.6.3 Carrying any two-way communication device is prohibited, with the following exceptions, each of which must be a standard,
commercially available model that is not used to provide any in-flight capabilities beyond those referenced below:
6.6.3.1 An aircraft-band VHF radio
6.6.3.2 An aircraft transponder
6.6.3.3 A wireless telephone (which is not to be used during flight)

UH

--
Dan, 5J

On 1/16/2016 11:41 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, January 16, 2016 at 9:58:24 AM UTC-6, Vaughn Simon wrote:
On 1/15/2016 6:48 PM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
some of the "cellphone issues" are NOT SSA RC OR US FAA issues, they are (yet another entity) FCC rules.

Quote chapter and verse of the FCC rule(s) you are referencing.

Vaughn

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx....1.1.2.8.27.12

Title 47, chapter 1, subchapter B, part 22, subpart H, 22.925.

§22.925 Prohibition on airborne operation of cellular telephones.

Cellular telephones installed in or carried aboard airplanes, ...

Yes, but is your telephone a Subpart H device?

You see, just like the FARS, the FCC regs are divided into parts, so
therefore context is important.

Subpart H only applies to certain devices.

Title 47, chapter 1, subchapter B, part 22, subpart H, 22.905.

§22.905 Channels for cellular service.
The following frequency bands are allocated for assignment to service
providers in the Cellular Radiotelephone Service.

(a) Channel Block A: 869-880 MHz paired with 824-835 MHz, and 890-891.5
MHz paired with 845-846.5 MHz.

(b) Channel Block B: 880-890 MHz paired with 835-845 MHz, and 891.5-894
MHz paired with 846.5-849 MHz.

[67 FR 77191, Dec. 17, 2002]

Do you know what frequency band your phone operates on?

On Saturday, January 16, 2016 at 11:16:31 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
Kirk,



I reviewed the XCSoar documentation and, it appears that its Flarm
traffic display is only really useable when zoomed in as in

Actually, the XCSoar software can be set to turn on a miniature radar display when traffic is near and that display has a different "zoom" factor than the moving map.

If you then touch the radar it will switch to full screen flarm display which can also be zoomed with a different factor.

MB