Are 'Single 180 Turn From Downwind to Final' and 'Stall-spin on Turnfrom Base to Final' mutually exclusive?

On Saturday, November 19, 2016 at 9:30:01 AM UTC+3, 2G wrote:
On Friday, November 18, 2016 at 8:06:21 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
To reply to the subject question in a word: NO.

You can stall and spin from any attitude or airspeed. All you have to
do is plan and execute it correctly or simply f*ck up the turn.

On 11/18/2016 6:25 AM, wrote:
An AOPA article states that the AOPA Safety Institute and University of North Dakota are studying the "circular vs rectangular" pattern as a result of the NTSB "Most Wanted Safety Improvements. It'll be interesting to see what the study produces.

--
Dan, 5J

It's REALLY hard to spin while flying coordinated - if you know of a way I would truly like to know. It is also tough to stall while flying coordinated because it takes a very high angle of attack and you would really have to work it keeping the glider coordinated as you approach stall. The FAA is emphasizing an angle of attack indicator to prevent spins; I think what is needed is an audible flight coordination indicator. In our gliders we have a heads-up flight coordination indicator which is even better - it's called a yaw string (but you have to look at it and react to it).

Define "coordinated". No problem to spin with the string perfectly centered..

It's true in any glider with enough elevator, but the Blanik is excellent for demonstrating it. Shallow turn, very graaaadually slow it down, maintaining constant bank angle with aileron and keeping the string in the middle with the rudder. Pretty soon you've got a whole heap of out of turn aileron and into turn rudder. But the string is in the middle and the nose isn't even very high. And then BAM full-on incipient spin.

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 00:50:56 -0800, Bruce Hoult wrote:

On Saturday, November 19, 2016 at 9:30:01 AM UTC+3, 2G wrote:
On Friday, November 18, 2016 at 8:06:21 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
To reply to the subject question in a word: NO.

You can stall and spin from any attitude or airspeed. All you have
to do is plan and execute it correctly or simply f*ck up the turn.

On 11/18/2016 6:25 AM, wrote:
An AOPA article states that the AOPA Safety Institute and
University of North Dakota are studying the "circular vs
rectangular" pattern as a result of the NTSB "Most Wanted Safety
Improvements. It'll be interesting to see what the study produces.

--
Dan, 5J

It's REALLY hard to spin while flying coordinated - if you know of a
way I would truly like to know. It is also tough to stall while flying
coordinated because it takes a very high angle of attack and you would
really have to work it keeping the glider coordinated as you approach
stall. The FAA is emphasizing an angle of attack indicator to prevent
spins; I think what is needed is an audible flight coordination
indicator. In our gliders we have a heads-up flight coordination
indicator which is even better - it's called a yaw string (but you have
to look at it and react to it).

Define "coordinated". No problem to spin with the string perfectly
centered.

It's true in any glider with enough elevator, but the Blanik is
excellent for demonstrating it. Shallow turn, very graaaadually slow it
down, maintaining constant bank angle with aileron and keeping the
string in the middle with the rudder. Pretty soon you've got a whole
heap of out of turn aileron and into turn rudder. But the string is in
the middle and the nose isn't even very high. And then BAM full-on
incipient spin.

Sounds like something the Puchacz would also do rather well. Must try it
during my next annual check.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Saturday, November 19, 2016 at 12:50:58 AM UTC-8, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Saturday, November 19, 2016 at 9:30:01 AM UTC+3, 2G wrote:
On Friday, November 18, 2016 at 8:06:21 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
To reply to the subject question in a word: NO.

You can stall and spin from any attitude or airspeed. All you have to
do is plan and execute it correctly or simply f*ck up the turn.

On 11/18/2016 6:25 AM, wrote:
An AOPA article states that the AOPA Safety Institute and University of North Dakota are studying the "circular vs rectangular" pattern as a result of the NTSB "Most Wanted Safety Improvements. It'll be interesting to see what the study produces.

--
Dan, 5J

It's REALLY hard to spin while flying coordinated - if you know of a way I would truly like to know. It is also tough to stall while flying coordinated because it takes a very high angle of attack and you would really have to work it keeping the glider coordinated as you approach stall. The FAA is emphasizing an angle of attack indicator to prevent spins; I think what is needed is an audible flight coordination indicator. In our gliders we have a heads-up flight coordination indicator which is even better - it's called a yaw string (but you have to look at it and react to it).

Define "coordinated". No problem to spin with the string perfectly centered.

It's true in any glider with enough elevator, but the Blanik is excellent for demonstrating it. Shallow turn, very graaaadually slow it down, maintaining constant bank angle with aileron and keeping the string in the middle with the rudder. Pretty soon you've got a whole heap of out of turn aileron and into turn rudder. But the string is in the middle and the nose isn't even very high. And then BAM full-on incipient spin.

You just confirmed what I said: it is very HARD to spin flying coordinated (not that it can't be done). You also have to ignore your other instruments, particularly the ASI.

Tom

Bruce Hoult wrote on 11/19/2016 12:50 AM:

Define "coordinated". No problem to spin with the string perfectly
centered.

It's true in any glider with enough elevator, but the Blanik is
excellent for demonstrating it. Shallow turn, very graaaadually slow
it down, maintaining constant bank angle with aileron and keeping the
string in the middle with the rudder. Pretty soon you've got a whole
heap of out of turn aileron and into turn rudder. But the string is
in the middle and the nose isn't even very high. And then BAM full-on
incipient spin.

Bruce describes how I practice incipient spins in my ASH 26 E (also the
way I practiced them in my ASW 20 C). One moment I'm doing a smooth,
coordinated turn; an instant later, the inboard wing is rotating down -
no warning.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"

https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf

My Stemme has built-in AoA indication but it's on the EFIS and I'm
looking outside during the pattern. All you really need is to be able
to recognize sloppy controls, reduced noise, and uncommanded movement of
the nose. This has been discussed to death (no pun intended). There's
no instrument that can protect you as well as training and practice and,
if you need to rely on an instrument, maybe you should be keeping
tropical fish instead of flying.

On 11/18/2016 11:29 PM, 2G wrote:
On Friday, November 18, 2016 at 8:06:21 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
To reply to the subject question in a word: NO.

You can stall and spin from any attitude or airspeed. All you have to
do is plan and execute it correctly or simply f*ck up the turn.

On 11/18/2016 6:25 AM, wrote:
An AOPA article states that the AOPA Safety Institute and University of North Dakota are studying the "circular vs rectangular" pattern as a result of the NTSB "Most Wanted Safety Improvements. It'll be interesting to see what the study produces.
--
Dan, 5J
It's REALLY hard to spin while flying coordinated - if you know of a way I would truly like to know. It is also tough to stall while flying coordinated because it takes a very high angle of attack and you would really have to work it keeping the glider coordinated as you approach stall. The FAA is emphasizing an angle of attack indicator to prevent spins; I think what is needed is an audible flight coordination indicator. In our gliders we have a heads-up flight coordination indicator which is even better - it's called a yaw string (but you have to look at it and react to it).

Tom

--
Dan, 5J

Link to the AOPA/UND landing pattern study:

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...lized-approach

There is no doubt in my mind which is the safer pattern; and it doesn't involve multiple turns at low altitude....

I hope they also look at pattern entry, since, unlike the current 45 degree entry to downwind, an initial entry to an overhead pattern (See AIM if you are unfamiliar) will automatically put you at the same downwind position EVERY

On Saturday, November 19, 2016 at 9:52:04 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
My Stemme has built-in AoA indication but it's on the EFIS and I'm
looking outside during the pattern. All you really need is to be able
to recognize sloppy controls, reduced noise, and uncommanded movement of
the nose. This has been discussed to death (no pun intended). There's
no instrument that can protect you as well as training and practice and,
if you need to rely on an instrument, maybe you should be keeping
tropical fish instead of flying.

On 11/18/2016 11:29 PM, 2G wrote:
On Friday, November 18, 2016 at 8:06:21 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
To reply to the subject question in a word: NO.

You can stall and spin from any attitude or airspeed. All you have to
do is plan and execute it correctly or simply f*ck up the turn.

On 11/18/2016 6:25 AM, wrote:
An AOPA article states that the AOPA Safety Institute and University of North Dakota are studying the "circular vs rectangular" pattern as a result of the NTSB "Most Wanted Safety Improvements. It'll be interesting to see what the study produces.
--
Dan, 5J
It's REALLY hard to spin while flying coordinated - if you know of a way I would truly like to know. It is also tough to stall while flying coordinated because it takes a very high angle of attack and you would really have to work it keeping the glider coordinated as you approach stall. The FAA is emphasizing an angle of attack indicator to prevent spins; I think what is needed is an audible flight coordination indicator. In our gliders we have a heads-up flight coordination indicator which is even better - it's called a yaw string (but you have to look at it and react to it).

Tom

--
Dan, 5J

I rely on my instruments EVERY time I fly, especially in the landing phase; don't you? Training and practice are a good thing, but they CAN'T substitute for good instruments, only teach us to use them properly. One can compensate for the loss of an instrument, like airspeed, but one would not deliberately not pay attention to a working ASI in the landing phase.

I, too, have an AOA; it is the artificial horizon in my Air Avionics (aka Butterfly) vario. I do not find it particularly helpful. I prefer to monitor the real-time wind indicator instead. I also assume that you pay attention to wind socks...

Tom

Link to the AOPA/UND landing pattern safety study:

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...lized-approach

No doubt in my mind which is the safer way to fly a pattern - the one that doesn't require rolling into and out of several 90 turns at low altitude...

I hope they also evaluate the best way to enter a pattern - The beauty of using the overhead entry to downwind (See AIM for details) is that if you know the field elevation, an overhead pattern will always put you at the same place on downwind relative to your landing aim point, regardless of whether it's your home airfield or someplace you have never been before. Combined with a 180 turn to land, it makes arrivals and landings reliably repeatable and consistent - and safer, IMO (and apparently in the opinions of most militaries, etc...).

Looking at this image of experienced pilots landing (cribbed from a previous post, thanks!) http://noss.ws/temp/patterns.jpg, I see only ONE trace that is a classic square pattern, with a couple more that are a bit less angular. The rest seem to be more or less continual turns to final.

Kirk
66

On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 4:33:48 PM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
The 'Single 180 Turn From Downwind to Final' (aka 'military style pattern') and 'Stall-spin on Turn from Base to Final' are both well discussed as independent topics on RAS. But I've not seen anything about how these pieces fit together.

Having recently tried the 'Single 180 Turn...' and LIKED it, I'm wondering if there is any good reason why I should not fly this approach at an uncontrolled airport with mostly glider traffic. What about at a controlled airport with mostly GA power traffic?

And I'm wondering if anyone has ever stall-spinned from a 'Single 180 Turn...' pattern and whether there are subtle 'gotchas' associated with that pattern shape that I should know about.

What is the military's track record wrt 'Stall-spin in the pattern'? Does it happen just as often with the 'Single 180 Turn...'?

This question has generated a long string of notes about the landing pattern & few about the stall.
One important factor is speed: As we all know, aircraft fall if a wing or a large part of it goes too slow.
Why would an intelligent, thoughtful pilot like us go too slow when close to the ground (turn to final)?
Because of the vection (false motion) illusion.
At 1000ft/300 meters, the ground passes by slowly. At 200ft/60 meters, the ground passes more swiftly and *it feels as though we have sped up*!
Only with frequent glances at the ASI can we be confident of not having to respond to one of Tom Knauf's six signs of the stall. The seventh of which is the ground rushing up and the controls being all floppy.
This is independent of the shape of the circuit pattern...