High Speed Passes & the FAA

JJ,

The finish cylinder has its place in competition. But not to the
exclusion of the finish line. Many of us still contend that it is
better to race to a visible marker rather than to a virtual point in
space requiring refernce to instruments. Heads up rather than heads
down. As for the FARs, aircraft regularly take off and land withn 500
feet of people, structures, and other aircraft at commercial airports.
This is by necessity.

An airport manager must balance proactive safety initiatives with
perceived risk versus safety history.

And finally, trailers and tie downs are mobile. Are we there to race
or to recreate? If the latter, call it a camp and dispense with the
racing altogether. Camps are fun too, but let's not confuse them with
contests.

OC

When was the last time you climbed to cloudbase?

Why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but
perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Luke 6:41


(Peter W) wrote in message om...
As a low time glider pilot who is getting back into soaring (just
bought a 1-35), I can't believe this thread. The FAA absolutely CAN
regulate people against their own stupidity. They do it with that
thing called the FAR's.

The tone of many on this issue here seems to be that the FAR's are for
the rest of aviation to follow, not contest glider pilots. Did it
ever occur to you guys that one day the FAA might get fed up with us
glider pilots and start enforcement actions against our tiny
population? Rules are rules and you are supposed to follow them.

Soaring has a terrible safety record and most of it seems due to a bad
attitude at everything related to safety. Hans Langer's tragic
accident occurred just a few weeks ago and the NTSB site says that his
spoilers weren't hooked up. How many deaths have been caused in the
last 10 years because the glider pilot didn't assemble his aircraft
correctly?

Oneday when someone makes a low pass and hurts or kills someone on the
ground or causes a midair, then you can be sure that the FAA will step
in to do something about this stupid practice.





Owain Walters wrote in message ...
JJ,

I am sorry for starting this fight with you but I will
proceed with what we have started.

I dont mind how experinced you are in Fast Jets I dont
see why you want to regulate against things that might
happen. You will not stop someone hell-bent on killing
themselves by enforcing a 500' min finish height. Lets
be reminded that the guy who started this says that
the racing finish is still allowed.

You can not regulate against peoples stupidity. If
this rule goes through people will get their kicks
somewhere else and almost certainly in a more dangerous,
less regulated situation.

"Jonathan Gere" wrote...
JJ - Do you ever make your landing touchdown within 500' of a person,
trailer or runway light, even if it is not necessary?

91.119 Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an
aircraft below the following altitudes...

"Chris OCallaghan" wrote...
The finish cylinder has its place in competition. But not to the
exclusion of the finish line. Many of us still contend that it is
better to race to a visible marker rather than to a virtual point in
space requiring refernce to instruments. Heads up rather than heads
down.

Flying head down is never necessary. The center of the finish cylinder is
almost always close to some visible marker on the airport. If it isn't, I ask
the CD to move it so it is. My software beeps when I cross the boundary of the
cylinder, does yours? Finally, I only glance at the computer once in a while to
see if I'm falling below glide slope, which I'd also be doing with a 50 foot
gate. But then again, I'm not anal about finishing at precisely 500 feet...

As for the FARs, aircraft regularly take off and land withn 500
feet of people, structures, and other aircraft at commercial airports.
This is by necessity.

91.119 Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an
aircraft below the following altitudes...

Our barn has that gray grungy look that old wood gets, so I have been
power-washing it in preparation for a coat of clear Urethane. Now power washing
is a monotonous task, so I started thinking about Finish Line Accidents. Surely
we must have had some, then, way up at the top of my 20 foot ladder, I
remembered ONE. Uvalde, August, 1986. It was the first Nationals at Uvalde,
15 meter I think Anyway, this ASW-20 driver hit the Finish Line, low and fast
(in those days, 5 feet was OK) He then pulled up and proceeded off the airport
to the North and crashed in a housing area. KS remembers, we helped remove the
wreckage from this guys pick-up truck and front yard. Pilot was severely
injured, but recovered satisfactorily.

It was widely suspected that the pilot was suffering from dehydration. So, not
a Finish Line Accident, just a medical condition, Right? Dr. Cannon has
lectured frequently about dehydration in contests, he says a dehydrated pilot
can be functioning OK, even though he is becoming seriously dehydrated. He can
find Uvalde (this was before GPS) He can perform his high speed, low altitude
pass through the Finish Line, But when he pulls some G's in his pull-up, the
G's can be more than his severely dehydrated mind can handle and
.............................................CRUNC H, he crashes in a housing
area.

I finished up the back of the barn and was washing the South side (much easier,
don't need the ladder) and I remembered ANOTHER Finish Line Accident. Cal City,
Nimbus 2, (Cindy can give dates & details) This Nimbus 2 driver comes in low,
but not very fast, flew through the Finish Line and pulled up very steeply,
stalled and was killed, right in front of the Finish Line. It was widely
believed that the pilot was dehydrated, was able to find Cal City, performed
his low pass through the Finish Line and
................................................

Your Honor, The Prosecution Rests,
JJ Sinclair

Hey JJ - What about high-speed passes in motor-gliders ?
See ya, Dave

"JJ Sinclair" wrote in message
...
Isn't there an FAR that says aviators will not fly below 500 feet, if over
people, places or things, unless they are in the act of landing? This
question
was asked by a pilots wife/crew at a nationals. Her motorhome was located
on a
permanently closed runway about 500 feet from the active runway. The
finish
line was over the closed runway. I didn't have an answer for her, do you?
JJ Sinclair

Drink your water and don't pull G's 'till you pass
out.

That power washer will keep you hydrated!

You know I can't resist telling you how unsafe it is
to stand on top of that 20' step ladder you mentioned.
I think it's even more dangerous than contest finishes.


Here are some facts from a Ladder Safety website:

'Every day, one person dies as the result of a ladder
fall. Each year, 65,000 people sustain injuries severe
enough to require treatment in hospital emergency rooms.'

Might have to ban you from power washing your barn
- for your own safety, of course.

;-)

The defense rests (with a chuckle).

9B


At 20:48 04 October 2003, Jj Sinclair wrote:
Our barn has that gray grungy look that old wood gets,
so I have been
power-washing it in preparation for a coat of clear
Urethane. Now power washing
is a monotonous task, so I started thinking about Finish
Line Accidents. Surely
we must have had some, then, way up at the top of my
20 foot ladder, I
remembered ONE. Uvalde, August, 1986. It was the
first Nationals at Uvalde,
15 meter I think Anyway, this ASW-20 driver hit the
Finish Line, low and fast
(in those days, 5 feet was OK) He then pulled up and
proceeded off the airport
to the North and crashed in a housing area. KS remembers,
we helped remove the
wreckage from this guys pick-up truck and front yard.
Pilot was severely
injured, but recovered satisfactorily.

It was widely suspected that the pilot was suffering
from dehydration. So, not
a Finish Line Accident, just a medical condition, Right?
Dr. Cannon has
lectured frequently about dehydration in contests,
he says a dehydrated pilot
can be functioning OK, even though he is becoming seriously
dehydrated. He can
find Uvalde (this was before GPS) He can perform his
high speed, low altitude
pass through the Finish Line, But when he pulls some
G's in his pull-up, the
G's can be more than his severely dehydrated mind can
handle and
.............................................CRUN CH,
he crashes in a housing
area.

I finished up the back of the barn and was washing
the South side (much easier,
don't need the ladder) and I remembered ANOTHER Finish
Line Accident. Cal City,
Nimbus 2, (Cindy can give dates & details) This Nimbus
2 driver comes in low,
but not very fast, flew through the Finish Line and
pulled up very steeply,
stalled and was killed, right in front of the Finish
Line. It was widely
believed that the pilot was dehydrated, was able to
find Cal City, performed
his low pass through the Finish Line and
............................................... .

Your Honor, The Prosecution Rests,
JJ Sinclair

"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message m...
"Jonathan Gere" wrote...
JJ - Do you ever make your landing touchdown within 500' of a person,
trailer or runway light, even if it is not necessary?

91.119 Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an
aircraft below the following altitudes...

I meant not "necessary for takeoff or landing".

The things I mentioned are not necessary for landing. Lots of people
do them as a normal part of their landing, but they could land at the
far corner of the airport (or off-field) to better follow the FAR's,
if JJ's legal opinions were correct, not ridiculous.

Lots of other people make low passes as a normal part of their
landings, right under the noses of FAA officials, the ones who get a
weekday off with pay visiting glider contests. I guess JJ is right
that low passes are illegal!

The seventh level of hell: eternity with JJ, John Cochrane, and the
guy who determined that rigging a glider required a logbook entry as
preventative maintenance, until the FAR wording was changed.

Jonathan Gere

"Tom Seim" wrote in message

One time I fould myself too low to make the A/P. The best landing
option was at the local high school on a vacant play field. Had to
make final over a soccer field (occupied). An irate parent complained
to the FAA. I talked to an investigator & explained the circumstances.
Her only comment was "After flying over so much farm land why did you
have to land close to people?". I went thru why gliding is different
from operating power A/C (more uncertainties, etc.) and that was the
end of that. Nobody was hurt and nothing got damaged. Translation: no
enforcement action.


What if there were a few kids on all the available fields, and you had no
other landing options? Would you have made a low pass to clear the field?
What if you had never done one before because you viewed low passes as
irresponsible?

Flying head down is never necessary. The center of the finish cylinder is
almost always close to some visible marker on the airport. If it isn't, I ask
the CD to move it so it is. My software beeps when I cross the boundary of the
cylinder, does yours? Finally, I only glance at the computer once in a while to
see if I'm falling below glide slope, which I'd also be doing with a 50 foot
gate. But then again, I'm not anal about finishing at precisely 500 feet...

I don't agree. When you approach a cylinder, you are aiming at its
center. I haven't seen a computer program that optimizes the point on
the cycliner you should be aiming at given current position and
altitude and interpolates your desired finish height to that point.
Instead you are looking down as the distance clicks off, and checking
your altitude to make sure that you don't fall slightly short. As
noted in earlier threads this means more heads down and more
variations in traffic height and speed, all converging on a much
smaller area (the optimum point on the cylinder).

Finish lines are almost completely heads up. If you can't judge 50
feet looking out the window, you have problems... certainly becuase
your altimeter is showing a variation of 50 feet or more since you set
it at takeoff. Additionally, traffic speed is much closer to uniform.
Low, slow gliders land straight ahead rather than obstructing the
finish line. And I've yet to encounter a glider at my height circling
1 mile from a finish line.


91.119 Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an
aircraft below the following altitudes...

My high speed finish is typically the crosswind or downwind leg of my
pattern. I have, on several occasions, thermalled away from a high
speed pass (never at a contest). There you have an argument. Otherwise
I'm excercising my options as a pilot to conform to a standard
pattern... one established by contestants prior to the contest. I am
therefore within the requirements of 91.119.

Be careful when citing book and passage from the FARs. I know for a
fact that you don't follow some rules (none of us do) as scrupulously
as you are applying them in this case. I can find some gray in 91.119.
You'll be hard pressed to find any in 91.155.

Virtue: the behavior we demand of others, but excuse the lack of in
ourselves.