Landout Laws

I don't grow cotton, WAG is $1-2K/a. The farmer has a chain and lock there
for a reason and I would not cut it. If there are workers or houses near,
they should be able to tell you who owns it. You could also call the Farm
Services Agency of USDA, they have maps of every field in the US and can
tell you who farms them. A local crop duster pilot could also tell you who
farms it and could fill you in on if he is going to be hard to get along
with too. I don't think you will have any problem with 95% of the farmers if
you just contact them first. But you can be 100% sure of problems if a
farmer drives up on you after you've cut his fence and driven your SUV into
his field without his permission.

"mm" wrote in message ...
Do you happen to know what the value of cotton is per acre?

Were I fly, most often the farmer/rancher is not on site, and I have not
even seen ownership info posted so that I could contact him later. In
situations like this, what should a pilot/crew do to minimize damage, and
reduce the chances of angering the farmer? Is cutting and then repairing
a
chain link acceptable or not? If not what is the alternative?

Thank you,

"Birdy" wrote in message
...
I'm a farmer and a pilot, but I don't fly gliders yet. When you all land
in
a field, first of all get permission from the farmer to retrieve the
airplane . There is NOTHING that will make a farmer madder than someone
driving through his crops and fields. He can tell you how he wants you
to
remove your glider with minium damage to the field and glider and will
likely pitch in to help if he is not busy. Also offer to pay damages,
gross
per a. is about $500on corn, $350 soybeans, $300 wheat and some other
crops
it can be much more. Tomatoes could be $5K/a. I don't think you would
like
it if someone drove a truck through your yard and over your bushes, it's
about the same thing. Just treat the farmers with respect and take care
of
any damage and you will be ok.


"Greg Arnold" wrote in message
news2TXb.4247$hE.3741@fed1read07...
One possibility is to carry a few business cards, and write on the
back
"good for one free glider ride at xxxx", initial it, and give it to
the
person whose field you landed in. Then be sure to tell the local
glider
ride operation that you will pay if someone shows up with the card.


Steve Hopkins wrote:

I think it is Cambridge GC in England that instituted
a fantastic land-out diplomatic policy. Pilots, landing
out, issued an invitation to the farmer and his wife
to the club's annual dinner dance. Not only did this
do wonders for public relations, I think they even
managed to snag a few new flying members. I heard a
wonderful tale of a local farmer telephoning the club
rather concerned that he was going to miss the annual
dinner dance. He added that he had kept the field mown
and had erected a wind sock but that nobody had landed
in his field that year!








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All very good posts.... When dealing with a receptive landowner,every efffort
should be made to placate him (or her). The real problem arises when dealing
with someone who is totally intractable. At this point the best alternative is
to call the local authorities and let the legal system deal with the situation.
Regarding the situation in Florida, the landowner arrived at the site, demanded
that the sheriff issue a summons and and absolutely refushed to even talk to
pilots or crews.

That means that the gross per square foot is typically 1 cent, but
sometimes as high as 10 cents. Say you damage 10' by 100'. That
typically would be $10, but might be $100. Not a lot of damage.


Birdy wrote:

I'm a farmer and a pilot, but I don't fly gliders yet. When you all land in
a field, first of all get permission from the farmer to retrieve the
airplane . There is NOTHING that will make a farmer madder than someone
driving through his crops and fields. He can tell you how he wants you to
remove your glider with minium damage to the field and glider and will
likely pitch in to help if he is not busy. Also offer to pay damages, gross
per a. is about $500on corn, $350 soybeans, $300 wheat and some other crops
it can be much more. Tomatoes could be $5K/a. I don't think you would like
it if someone drove a truck through your yard and over your bushes, it's
about the same thing. Just treat the farmers with respect and take care of
any damage and you will be ok.

Ok, I'll fess up. I've got 133 landouts in hang gliders.
But it wasn't that big a problem for me after I got my dad involved.

My dad was an Ag Banker in Central California where
I landed out often. The big thing the farmers need to
know is that they aren't going to be harmed financially
after you drag your glider out. Years ago, my dad sent
letters to the local farm co-ops explaining that gliders
exist and on occasion you might find one in your field.
The heads up got most everybody past the first step in
their learning process,facing the unknown. Farmers don't
usually know squat about soaring. For all they know,
your full of poisonous fuel, are radioactive and cause cattle sterility.
If you can educate them before you drop in, you will have a
much easier time on the retrieve.

I took my Hang glider stuff to a few FFA meetings, and explained how
I flew and that sometimes, I don't make it home and might accidentally
become their guest. The kids thought it was cool, the adults were
appreciative that somebody had the forethought to tell them what
was going on above them that migt affect them someday. Quite
a few FFA groups and Farmers Cooperatives got the same program
in the mail. After that, I was treated really well by the farmers I dropped
in on, and a couple actually welcomed me.

Proactivity is more time consuming than making excuses at the gate,
but maybe if the racing organization cared to be good neighbors,
a similar effort might raise awareness to a point where problems could
be avoided. I think I might start with the county sherrifs and move
down the food chain.

Scott Correa

Steve Hopkins wrote:

I think it is Cambridge GC in England that instituted
a fantastic land-out diplomatic policy. Pilots, landing
out, issued an invitation to the farmer and his wife
to the club's annual dinner dance. Not only did this
do wonders for public relations, I think they even
managed to snag a few new flying members. I heard a
wonderful tale of a local farmer telephoning the club
rather concerned that he was going to miss the annual
dinner dance. He added that he had kept the field mown
and had erected a wind sock but that nobody had landed
in his field that year!

A variation on the theme is the Farmer's Wine and Cheese Party at Lasham-
been going since the 1960s. I believe at one time it was even in the
social events diary in "Farmer's Weekly". I've also, when flying in the
south of England had farmers asking if I could get then an invite.

Another approach used by some British clubs is the aerotow trial lesson
voucher- it generates goodwill and only costs the pilot money if the person
he gives it to actually shows up to take the ride.
--
Soar the big sky
The real name on the left is richard

I've been following this thread with interest. As I was reading it I was
also updating my landout site database. Starting with
http://www.airstripamerica.com/ and http://www.airnav.com/airports/us, I
looked for runways in the area that I plan to be flying which would
accomodate the 20+ meter span of the Nimbus 2C.

In about three weeks I am planning a two day road trip to southern Colorado
and northern New Mexico to eyeball, measure and photograph a bunch of these
potential landing sites. I will post the pictures and information to the
Airstrip America web site as they request so other glider pilots can use the
information. I suggest that it would be a good idea for all of us to do
this for everyones benefit.

One duster strip is strategically located on the second leg of a proposed
500K triangle and the owners e-mail address was listed. I e-mailed him to
ask about the width of his dirt runway and whether I might use it in an
emergency. He replied, "Why sure, it's plenty wide." "Drop in anytime!"

Based on some of the inputs by r.a.s. members in this thread, I will also
ask the AG pilots at the various strips I visit which farms and ranches to
avoid. I expect they will know a lot about their customers.

Bill Daniels

Actually I don't blame the farmers too much. Take Dayton duster strip, about 20
miles N/E of Minden. His gate was unlocked and the road led right through his
ranch complex (home & barn) His strip got a lot of use, because it was the last
place to land before the mountains blocked the way home from the North. Some
crews didn't even stop and ask permission at the ranch house and would just
drive right through his yard, leaving a cloud of dust on their way to his
duster strip. His gate was left wide open on several occasions. little wonder
he finally said. NO MORE.

That ranch is now a million dollar aviation & golfing complex with a nice long,
paved runway. Guess what? A local tow-pilot reported them to the Reno FSDO,
because their runway markers were too close to the runway (a glider hit one as
it was being aero-towed out). RIGHT BACK to SQUARE ONE. Gliders are no longer
welcome there. I believe one can land there, but aero-towing out is forbidden,
because they might hit one of their *illegal* runway markers.
JJ Sinclair

You've received many responses, all offering good advice. Here's a
suggestion to get real info on legalities. If you are an AOPA member,
call them and make use of their member services, which include just
this type of legal assistance. If you are not a member, perhaps you
can convince an AOPA member to call and share with the group.

Lots of good information in this thread. I landed in a new cotton
field in which the plants were only 3 inches tall. The field was
planted on double rows so I carefully avoided hitting any of the young
plants. The Farmer came out with the usual assortment of kids and,
after exchanging pleasantries (carry a real dirty CAT hat for these
occasions), I pointed out that I had missed each and every of his
cotton plants. He looked me straight in the eye and said, "son with
the price of cotton right now it don't make a damm bit of difference"
and that was that.

Growing up on a ranch I have been on both sides of the trespass issue.
No matter what the law says you are an uninvited guest on the
property. Most ranchers/farmers have a long history of yeah who's
shooting off the road, starting fires, cutting fences, driving
recklessly, tossing beer bottles and your arrival can be labeled just
another chapter in this litany. Remember that most of these folks are
rather solitary, get few visitors, are rather wary of strangers and
like it that way, hence the choice of vocation. You should make every
effort to understand and overcome these obstacles with common sense
and the provision of respect for the person and the land. They do not
care at all that by landing in their field you just sank your chances
at a hero score in the Nationals or your a hot shot from the Big City.
Ask about the rain, ground, (pick some up in your hand), crop prices,
co ops, crop rotation, how long they have been at it and the best Cafe
in town. Of course there are some farmers and ranchers that fall into
the nutty category as well. Better yet, judging from their posts in
this thread, land with Chip Bearden and Chris.



(Chris OCallaghan) wrote in message . com...
You've received many responses, all offering good advice. Here's a
suggestion to get real info on legalities. If you are an AOPA member,
call them and make use of their member services, which include just
this type of legal assistance. If you are not a member, perhaps you
can convince an AOPA member to call and share with the group.

The pilots weren't tresspassing. They were survivors of an emergency
landing.

"Charles Petersen" wrote in message
...
We had two landouts at Seminole yesterday, both in the same field, - a
pasture with cattle and a locked gate. One of the pilots visited a nearby
farmhouse, and spoke with the wife of the property owner asking permission
to enter and a key. She was very nice and called her son. He agreed to
call back on the pilots cell phone. The Sheriff was also called and did
not
call back. An hour later, with both trailers at the gate, we called the
Sheriff again and advised that we intended to cut a link in the chain, and
replace it with a padlock when we left, and mail the key to the owner.
This
would leave his field secure, and there was no damage. The Sheriff's
office
made it clear they were not giving permission, and the retrieve crew made
it
clear they were not asking for permission, merely advising the Sheriff of
their intentions, citing the approaching sunset and $220,000 of aircraft
in
a field with cattle. A bolt cutter gave entry, and we commenced
derigging,
leaving our most charming crew member at the gate. Both the son of the
owner and the Sheriff arrived. The son was extremely upset, insisting
that
charges be laid. The Sheriff, seemingly somewhat reluctantly,
fingerprinted
both pilots and wrote up a proposal for charges, which he said would be
presented to the public attorney to decide whether to proceed. Nothing
further has been heard, and we hope / believe nothing further will be
heard.

My question is: - what is the law governing a landout on private property?
What are the rights of the pilot and of the property owner? Where are
these
rights codified? The Sheriff said if we had done the same thing after he
arrived, he would not have laid charges. He did not charge the retrieve
crew with breaking and entering or trespassing. What about the crew
situation?

BTW, all concerned did act as 'ambassadors of the sport', but the son was
implacable.