Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Tuesday, 3 October 2017 10:27:54 UTC-6, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
It is really frustrating that for the most part, both the flying and non-flying public/lawmakers/administrators/controllers and even fellow aviators, have little to no understanding of how glider operate and what they can do. During the 18 meter nationals the CD had multiple calls with local Air Force Base, during one such call the CD was asked is the gliders could just stay within 5 miles of Uvalde, and I know the Air Force has gliders.


On Tuesday, October 3, 2017 at 8:04:57 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, October 3, 2017 at 9:24:48 AM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 5:13:57 PM UTC-4, mic pilot wrote:
It seems like this incident took place near teddy intersection at approx. 7000 msl? That’s just a really bad place flying if you’re not talking to ATC, with or without a transponder. Teddy is major point on the arrival and anyone that’s flown into ORD has heard of it.
The flight aware track is deceiving because the jet does a few turns over Janesville at 10000msl but that’s not where the conflict took place. It was SE of JVL at 7000msl when the jet had to climb to miss an aircraft.

As glider pilots we really need to know where the jet traffic is and not go there unless you're in contact with ATC. Look up all the major airports you fly near on Airnav.com, read about the runways, and especially the STAR arrivals, also frequencies, and phone numbers are helpful. You can download free copies of the STARS. Knowing what runways they are using based on winds the day of your flight can help.
Then on your flights, if the lift takes you near a busy intersection at the altitude used, call ATC. If you’re well below the traffic, maybe just listen? However, know that if you have a transponder and don’t call, you are causing a lot of chatter on a busy frequency. They will all be trying to figure out what you’re doing.

Hi Mic,

Wellllllll... since a lot of this is all new to me it's a cinch that it's new to many, if not most glider pilots. Never heard of a STAR until this discussion. Didn't know you could get free copies :-).

This would be a good opportunity for some knowledgeable glider + airline pilot or glider pilot + ATC guy to do an article or two. Let me be first to provide such encouragement.

But I really have to wonder about the wisdom of bringing big iron down below 8000 that far out of class B in VFR conditions. Actually, I don't "wonder" at all, I think it's unconscionably stupid. Feel free to give me a reason to change my mind.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

At our operation in the Hudson valley of New York we have been dealing with this situation for many years. Heavies come over us at about 7000 feet, sometimes about 6000 feet, more than 40 miles from their destination at Newark.
I recently got a phone call from a man at Boston Center(they control this airspace)in response to a reported conflict in our area between a jet and a glider. Not characterized as a near miss(hit?).
He asked if we know about the jets flying overhead.
I said yes.
I described how we know of them and what we do to avoid conflict.
It turns out that the conflict was near a VOR about 10 miles away and happened on a day we were not flying. We avoid the area of the VOR. I explained this and why.
He then asked how many gliders we would have in the air, stating his assumption that it would be 3 or 4.
When I explained that it could be 5 to 20 at altitudes of surface to the top of the convective layer, and could commonly be 6000 to 7000 feet, he got very quiet.
Next he asked how many had transponders. I told him about 20%.
Response was "Oh".
I asked why they are so low 40 miles out and got no explanation.
The take away for me was:
1)ATC does not know we are there, even though charts depict our activity.
2) They wrongly assume everybody has a transponder.
3)They do not take the time to make themselves aware of avoidable conflict.
4)We have to make ourselves aware of the conflict conditions and avoid those places.
FWIW
UH

Johnathan I hear what you are saying but it is easy for the clubs and contest organizers to reach out and build awareness. Here in Northern Utah we work very close with SLC ATC, the folks at Clover Center for the MOA's and Restricted areas and Denver ATC during the Nephi contests/events.

We make them aware of the events and each day we send tasks sheets and other information to let know where we will be and when. If we are tasking through MOA's the folks at Clover will move activities if there are any. Yes, we check TFR's, NOTAM's and call them first thing in the morning before we decide to task through that area.

The folks at SLC will keep the jets higher for the arrival corridor that passes directly over the area west of the airport and the commonly used for start cylinders.

We have a direct number to ATC to let them know the exact time we start launching and we call them at the end of the contest day. It works well and adds minimal workload for the ground ops person.

The communication goes both ways. During the 2016 Nationals I got a call from ATC to let us know that a NOTAM was just filed for a temporary jump zone at one the airports along the task we had called. We were able to inform the pilots to be aware if they had to use that airport.

Should all be aware of us? Of course but they are not and building the awareness is easy and quite enlightening.

We also make sure they have the link to the SSA tracking site and they have really enjoyed watching along!

Interesting read of all comments/replies.

I flew in France near Paris where we have inbound/outbound traffic from three major airports:
_Paris Charles de Gaulle (LFPG) - 50km away
_Paris Orly (LFPO) - 40km away
_Pars Le Bourget (LFPB) - 40km away

We were operating under a Class A airspace with strict restrictions in terms of altitude. Basically, we could not fly above 760m MSL (2500ft) above the airport, then 1060m MSL (3500ft) 10km away and so on... So we sat down with the DGAC (french FAA) and local ATC and managed to discuss operational processes with which we could extend our max altitude on days we were flying..

Basically, each pilot was supposed to have 5 sectional charts of the region depending on the wind conditions in LFPG/LFPO and whether the derogation was active or not. Our club would call LFPO each morning to activate our "zones" and LFPO would then make sure airliners (like an A380) would stay in Class A airspace. Should the wind condition changed, LFPO would call the club and let us know that the zones would then change in 10-15min. The club would then inform us of the change via the radio.

All pilots had to sign an mutual understanding agreement where we acknowledged those rules and would be held responsible if we would break them. Our chief pilot would then check flights if any suspicion of airspace breach was raised.

Although it was still limiting our ability to fly away quickly, this mutual understanding between ATC and us created a safe place where we would fly safely. Because we had FLARM installed in all airplanes, it provided another security to ATC as he could track us and make sure we would abide by those rules.

The key is always to establish a relationship with ATC where clear navigation rules can be agreed upon for safe flying. Utah Soaring seems to take that even to the next level by providing ATC guidelines and checks/reviews for its pilots. An example to follow for the rest of the community!

On a side note, I flew DL149 yesterday to KEWR: we started our approach 45min before touchdown and spent 1/2h at/below 6,000ft while we could have flown higher, faster, cleaner to intercept the approach on runway 04R. What a waste of time, fuel and money! It is a busy airspace but still there is a GIGANTIC room for improvement/efficiency gains/flight optimization here

Replay on Flightradar24 speaks for itself.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/f.../dl149#f12e3ce

Fly safe!

On 10/02/2017 03:13 PM, mic pilot wrote:
It seems like this incident took place near teddy intersection at approx. 7000 msl? That’s just a really bad place flying if you’re not talking to ATC, with or without a transponder. Teddy is major point on the arrival and anyone that’s flown into ORD has heard of it.
The flight aware track is deceiving because the jet does a few turns over Janesville at 10000msl but that’s not where the conflict took place. It was SE of JVL at 7000msl when the jet had to climb to miss an aircraft.

As glider pilots we really need to know where the jet traffic is and not go there unless you're in contact with ATC. Look up all the major airports you fly near on Airnav.com, read about the runways, and especially the STAR arrivals, also frequencies, and phone numbers are helpful. You can download free copies of the STARS. Knowing what runways they are using based on winds the day of your flight can help.
Then on your flights, if the lift takes you near a busy intersection at the altitude used, call ATC. If you’re well below the traffic, maybe just listen? However, know that if you have a transponder and don’t call, you are causing a lot of chatter on a busy frequency. They will all be trying to figure out what you’re doing.


So I've seen the conflict described as taking place 43 nautical out at
6800 msl. That's not a wedding cake, that's a friggin pancake! Apart
from the traffic issues, you've got increased fuel burn down low, and
noise abatement issues. I'd sure like to hear who decided running
airliners that low was a good idea.

I live slightly farther away from a major international airport, and
both the arrivals and departures are a whole lot higher than that, even
accounting for a 5000 ft delta in airport elevations.

I agree with your recommendations, but getting a transponder installed
has got to be at the top of a list, and using it whenever in the air.
It's amazing how many people think they can guess when they need to turn
it on. Funny thing about accidents, you never see them coming.

Heavy transport category aircraft are authorized to exceed the 250KIAS limit in the climb below 10,000 MSL when required to maintain a safe speed margin in clean configuration.

Military fighters do the same and often climb out at 350KIAS below 10,000 MSL. Many jet fighters descend at 300 KIAS below 10,000 for the same reason having the ability to maneuver while clean.

IR routes for military use are often used in VFR weather. VR routes require higher weather mins to used.
Speeds in a IR/VR route and MOA can routinely exceed 500KIAS to .99 Mach. at altitudes down to 500ft AGL.

Did anyone comment about departing aircraft from airports are climbing out and being in the way of arriving aircraft. At Newark when your landing on 04 you are down low for a long time. That is due to arrivals into Teterboro, LGA and JFK. Departures from these same airports force ATC to bring arrivals in lower than anyone wants. For airline pilots we would like to be at altitude until we pull the engines to idle and not move them until the flair. STARS help in that regard and lessens ATC workload. Flying into Reno one day, I was right over Minden airport at a reasonable glider altitude. The operations/glider pilots out there and ATC have a great relationship. We need more efforts like that to midigate problems like Chicago.

Military fighters climb at 300kts (except A-10’s) unless you want to show off. VR routes do allow flights down to 200ft AGL. I’ve been west of Seminole-Lake Gliderport and seen everything from B-52’s, F-16’s to C-130’s on the IR by the gliderport. When flying around Avon Park you have to watch for fighters using transiting to/from the bombing range under 5,000ft.

Florida has a great number of corporate jets that fly in our airspace. It isn’t uncommon to see jets below 5K skirting the Class B around Orlando to fly into Orlando Executive. They also transit to Ocala, Tampa, and Kissemmee VFR. I’m buying a transponder for my ship just to be a little more visible in the airspace. Hope to see some of you all down here in March.

Cheers,
Rich
ZO

Hope to see some of you all down here in March.

Of course, condo is booked through second week of May.
Noticed you already have two dozen entries. Only about three dozen more before you're full.

Good plan, Rich.Â* I highly recommend the Trig TT22.Â* It's a 1090ES
transponder and easily upgraded to ADS-B Out when/if you're ready. The
price is also reasonable.

On 10/12/2017 11:54 AM, Rich Owen wrote:
Did anyone comment about departing aircraft from airports are climbing out and being in the way of arriving aircraft. At Newark when your landing on 04 you are down low for a long time. That is due to arrivals into Teterboro, LGA and JFK. Departures from these same airports force ATC to bring arrivals in lower than anyone wants. For airline pilots we would like to be at altitude until we pull the engines to idle and not move them until the flair. STARS help in that regard and lessens ATC workload. Flying into Reno one day, I was right over Minden airport at a reasonable glider altitude. The operations/glider pilots out there and ATC have a great relationship. We need more efforts like that to midigate problems like Chicago.

Military fighters climb at 300kts (except A-10’s) unless you want to show off. VR routes do allow flights down to 200ft AGL. I’ve been west of Seminole-Lake Gliderport and seen everything from B-52’s, F-16’s to C-130’s on the IR by the gliderport. When flying around Avon Park you have to watch for fighters using transiting to/from the bombing range under 5,000ft.

Florida has a great number of corporate jets that fly in our airspace. It isn’t uncommon to see jets below 5K skirting the Class B around Orlando to fly into Orlando Executive. They also transit to Ocala, Tampa, and Kissemmee VFR. I’m buying a transponder for my ship just to be a little more visible in the airspace. Hope to see some of you all down here in March.

Cheers,
Rich
ZO

--
Dan, 5J

On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 12:54:24 PM UTC-5, Rich Owen wrote:
Did anyone comment about departing aircraft from airports are climbing out and being in the way of arriving aircraft. At Newark when your landing on 04 you are down low for a long time. That is due to arrivals into Teterboro, LGA and JFK. Departures from these same airports force ATC to bring arrivals in lower than anyone wants. For airline pilots we would like to be at altitude until we pull the engines to idle and not move them until the flair. STARS help in that regard and lessens ATC workload. Flying into Reno one day, I was right over Minden airport at a reasonable glider altitude. The operations/glider pilots out there and ATC have a great relationship. We need more efforts like that to midigate problems like Chicago.

Military fighters climb at 300kts (except A-10’s) unless you want to show off. VR routes do allow flights down to 200ft AGL. I’ve been west of Seminole-Lake Gliderport and seen everything from B-52’s, F-16’s to C-130’s on the IR by the gliderport. When flying around Avon Park you have to watch for fighters using transiting to/from the bombing range under 5,000ft.

Florida has a great number of corporate jets that fly in our airspace. It isn’t uncommon to see jets below 5K skirting the Class B around Orlando to fly into Orlando Executive. They also transit to Ocala, Tampa, and Kissemmee VFR. I’m buying a transponder for my ship just to be a little more visible in the airspace. Hope to see some of you all down here in March.

Cheers,
Rich
ZO

Are these military aircraft equipped with transponders and/or ADS-B OUT? Do they show up on TIS-B in a properly ADS-B IN and OUT equipped aircraft?

All military aircraft have transponders and we do show up on on civilian equipment.

On Friday, October 13, 2017 at 5:22:24 AM UTC-7, Rich Owen wrote:
All military aircraft have transponders and we do show up on on civilian equipment.

In my experience, transponders in F- things don't seem to be the norm, Rich..

Half an hour ago a B-1 and two F-16s roared past my house at a reasonably fast pace. One of the fighters was yanking and banking at less than 1000' AGL, quite legal in the MOA, part of the R2508 Complex (2508 user handbook link below). Looked like they went overhead Tehachapi Municipal, a few miles from the glider operation at Mountain Valley Airport, apparently on their way to Edwards AFB for a Chuck Yeager supersonic anniversary.

The responsibility to see and avoid is on all of us. If you fly in heavily trafficked areas, use Mode C or better and turn the thing on. I can think of one excuse for a SLSP flying near ORD not to be at least squawking 1202: Not accepting the second word in this paragraph.
Jim

http://www.edwards.af.mil/Portals/50...-21-080711-260