US Dollar sinks to new low against Euro

Earlier, Stewart Kissel
wrote:

...I suspect he might make some terrific sailplanes
if he set his mind to it...

Well, considering the Solitaire motorglider, his last contribution to
the world of soaring, I'd have to entertain some doubts.

Not that I don't think he could, as you say, make terrific sailplanes.
Just that I don't think he'd be inclined to play the incremental game
of quarter-percentages that modern sailplane development seems to have
become.

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24
*now under glass*

"Bob Kuykendall" wrote in message
om...
Earlier, Stewart Kissel
wrote:

...I suspect he might make some terrific sailplanes
if he set his mind to it...

Well, considering the Solitaire motorglider, his last contribution to
the world of soaring, I'd have to entertain some doubts.

Not that I don't think he could, as you say, make terrific sailplanes.
Just that I don't think he'd be inclined to play the incremental game
of quarter-percentages that modern sailplane development seems to have
become.

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24
*now under glass*

It seems the aerodynamics of gliders has reached a point of near perfection
where further performance increases are likely to be very small.

Where I wish the designers would concentrate now is in the area of processes
and materials where reductions in manufacturing costs might be realized. A
breakthrough here would have large impact on the sport.

Bill Daniels

Earlier, "Bill Daniels" wrote:

It seems the aerodynamics of gliders has
reached a point of near perfection where
further performance increases are likely
to be very small...

I believe that is true for span-limited performace.

There are probably substantial gains to be had by applying
technological advances to increase span, but at at rates that get very
steep when you look at the overall operational picture.

Where I wish the designers would concentrate
now is in the area of processes and materials
where reductions in manufacturing costs might
be realized. A breakthrough here would have
large impact on the sport.

I think that is sort of a chicken-and-egg kind of thing.

At production run rates of several thousand gliders per manufacturer
per year, I would guess that it would be economically viable to apply
existing manufacturing technologies that could drastically reduce the
per-unit price of a typical 15-meter glider. And by drastically, I
mean between to between a quarter and a third of current prices.

The trouble is that without a huge demand for gliders there is no
incentive to spend the capital that it would take to build the
manufacturing infrastructure that it takes to make them inexpensively.
And without plentiful inexpensive gliders, soaring will continue to be
popular among only (relatively) affluent people.

I absolutely agree that it would be great if there were some sort of
breakthrough that would drastically lower the manufacturing costs of
conventional low-volume gliders. But even modest gains in that area
will help nudge us towards the popularity spiral that it will take to
attact real capital investment.

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24

"Bob Kuykendall" wrote in message
om...
Earlier, "Bill Daniels" wrote:

It seems the aerodynamics of gliders has
reached a point of near perfection where
further performance increases are likely
to be very small...

I believe that is true for span-limited performace.

There are probably substantial gains to be had by applying
technological advances to increase span, but at at rates that get very
steep when you look at the overall operational picture.

Where I wish the designers would concentrate
now is in the area of processes and materials
where reductions in manufacturing costs might
be realized. A breakthrough here would have
large impact on the sport.

I think that is sort of a chicken-and-egg kind of thing.

At production run rates of several thousand gliders per manufacturer
per year, I would guess that it would be economically viable to apply
existing manufacturing technologies that could drastically reduce the
per-unit price of a typical 15-meter glider. And by drastically, I
mean between to between a quarter and a third of current prices.

The trouble is that without a huge demand for gliders there is no
incentive to spend the capital that it would take to build the
manufacturing infrastructure that it takes to make them inexpensively.
And without plentiful inexpensive gliders, soaring will continue to be
popular among only (relatively) affluent people.

I absolutely agree that it would be great if there were some sort of
breakthrough that would drastically lower the manufacturing costs of
conventional low-volume gliders. But even modest gains in that area
will help nudge us towards the popularity spiral that it will take to
attact real capital investment.

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24

I remember the first fiberglass gliders where huge effort was expended to
make the plugs from which the molds were made. All labor intensive hand
sculpture. Now CNC techniques can cut the plugs or even cut the molds
directly. Where we once used glass fiber we now use carbon/epoxy pultrusion
rods. Some progress is being made.

Recently, I've been playing with solid UHMWPE. I have no idea whether a
glider could be made of it but it's fascinating stuff - very light, strong,
slippery and with fantastic abraision resistance. I understand it can be
injection molded.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels

"Bob Kuykendall" wrote in message
om...
snip
The trouble is that without a huge demand for gliders there is no
incentive to spend the capital that it would take to build the
manufacturing infrastructure that it takes to make them inexpensively.
And without plentiful inexpensive gliders, soaring will continue to be
popular among only (relatively) affluent people.

Partnerships have been popular in Europe. Quite easy to halve or quarter
the price of a glider when you realize you can't fly it yourself all the
time. Look at all the 10-25 year old gliders with 500-2500 hours on them.
At that rate you can afford both the glider and the greens fees.

Frank Whiteley

Bob Kuykendall wrote:


At production run rates of several thousand gliders per manufacturer
per year, I would guess that it would be economically viable to apply
existing manufacturing technologies that could drastically reduce the
per-unit price of a typical 15-meter glider. And by drastically, I
mean between to between a quarter and a third of current prices.

Many people say they would be delighted to have a glider with the
performance of an LS4. This performance can now be achieved with a
smaller span glider of 13 M or less. Can you guess at the cost reduction
that would be possible with a 12 or 13 meter glider compared to the 15M
LS4? Smaller factory, less materials, less labor (especially if hand
finishing is needed), smaller trailer, lower shipping costs (RO-RO is by
volume, I think).


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Stewart Kissel wrote in message ...
http://www.scaled.com/projects/globalflyer.html

Well if anyone out there in ras world is a buddy of
Rutan...I suspect he might make some terrific sailplanes
if he set his mind to it. For some reason I suspect
the very limited market would not be of much interest
to him

Actually, Rutan's track record for sailplanes is pretty bad - his
Solitaire self-launch glider won the SSA/SHA (?) contest, but turned
out to be a lousy sailplane due to it's canard configuration -
couldn't thermal slow enough (a simplification of the problem with
using canards at high Cls).

Butt-ugly, too; makes a PW-5 look beautiful in comparison!

I must be the only guy who thinks Rutan's designs are ugly and
over-optimized. But they do work exceptionally well at their design
missions, and one cannot argue with success!

Kirk

Kirk Stant wrote:
...
I must be the only guy who thinks Rutan's designs are ugly and
over-optimized.
...

Certainly not, concerning the optimization.
See http://inter.action.free.fr/publicat...ds/canards.htm
Sorry, it is in French.

Robert Ehrlich wrote in message ...
Kirk Stant wrote:
...
I must be the only guy who thinks Rutan's designs are ugly and
over-optimized.
...

Certainly not, concerning the optimization.
See http://inter.action.free.fr/publicat...ds/canards.htm
Sorry, it is in French.

Merci, c'est interessant!

Eh oui, un amerloque qui parle Francais...et qui a vote pour W.

Kirk

Stewart Kissel wrote:
http://www.scaled.com/projects/globalflyer.html

That's quite a beasty. I hope it has automated independent pitch
stabilization for each of the booms. I suspect they could get
oscillating relative to each other and cause some nasty problems.

Shawn