4-seater

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:41a6305a$1@darkstar...
Bill Daniels wrote:

With retractable gear, flaps and winglets that would suggest ~45:1 L/D
and a
min sink of about .55 M/Sec. If flown with a cockpit load of 300 Kg the
min
sink would be less.

I bet you'd sell a lot more at 1/4 the price with fixed gear,
no flaps, 30:1 glide and higher wing loading.

In my experience, non-pilots are happier with glider rides,
and pilots want soaring rides. The 2-32 rides that succeed seem
to be in places with no lift or ridge lift, and are high tows
of short duration with little turbulence or "excitement."

The best part of these flights for the pax seem to be the great
visibility, smooth ride, and quiet sightseeing, for a reasonable price.
This isn't quite in line with the specs you suggest.

One of my pilot friends humped a bunch of rides in Hawaii. He thought there
was a market for a terminal to the numbers 2-32 ride. Climb to 3000agl then
due a vertical dive (with speed limiting brakes open) and pull out above the
numbers and land. Of course for this, the chutes are required, which limits
the load again.

In the UK, we did some evening rides for a group of fireman from the local
fire college. Not much lift late in the date, but some really got off on a
four-loop cloverleaf with a beatup at the end.

A club near Houston reports having been approached by Six Flags about a
concept for winch launch and soar back. I suppose a couple of loops or
something similar might be the icing on cake.

Granted, this type of operation may not appeal to many of us, but there may
be some other interest there.

Frank Whiteley

"F.L. Whiteley" wrote in message
...

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:41a6305a$1@darkstar...
Bill Daniels wrote:

With retractable gear, flaps and winglets that would suggest ~45:1 L/D
and a
min sink of about .55 M/Sec. If flown with a cockpit load of 300 Kg
the
min
sink would be less.

I bet you'd sell a lot more at 1/4 the price with fixed gear,
no flaps, 30:1 glide and higher wing loading.

In my experience, non-pilots are happier with glider rides,
and pilots want soaring rides. The 2-32 rides that succeed seem
to be in places with no lift or ridge lift, and are high tows
of short duration with little turbulence or "excitement."

The best part of these flights for the pax seem to be the great
visibility, smooth ride, and quiet sightseeing, for a reasonable price.
This isn't quite in line with the specs you suggest.

One of my pilot friends humped a bunch of rides in Hawaii. He thought
there
was a market for a terminal to the numbers 2-32 ride. Climb to 3000agl
then
due a vertical dive (with speed limiting brakes open) and pull out above
the
numbers and land. Of course for this, the chutes are required, which
limits
the load again.

In the UK, we did some evening rides for a group of fireman from the local
fire college. Not much lift late in the date, but some really got off on
a
four-loop cloverleaf with a beatup at the end.

A club near Houston reports having been approached by Six Flags about a
concept for winch launch and soar back. I suppose a couple of loops or
something similar might be the icing on cake.

Granted, this type of operation may not appeal to many of us, but there
may
be some other interest there.

Frank Whiteley


Naw, this stuff isn't to entertain the ride customers, it's to stave off
boredom for the ride pilots. You can give a ride customer all the thrills
they can handle with a steep turn and maybe a low-G pushover.

I fly as smoothly as possible while working any lift available. I babble on
about beautiful scenery, long flights, high flights, using energy from the
sun and how wonderful it is that we can make our way across the sky with
just piloting skills. Then I point out that they too can become a pilot in
a few weeks or months. They enjoy their ride and a few sign up for lessons.

It seems to work a lot better in a Grob than in a 2-32 though.

Bill Daniels

"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
news:Zqwpd.85993$V41.54449@attbi_s52...

"F.L. Whiteley" wrote in message
...

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:41a6305a$1@darkstar...
Bill Daniels wrote:

With retractable gear, flaps and winglets that would suggest ~45:1
L/D
and a
min sink of about .55 M/Sec. If flown with a cockpit load of 300 Kg
the
min
sink would be less.

I bet you'd sell a lot more at 1/4 the price with fixed gear,
no flaps, 30:1 glide and higher wing loading.

In my experience, non-pilots are happier with glider rides,
and pilots want soaring rides. The 2-32 rides that succeed seem
to be in places with no lift or ridge lift, and are high tows
of short duration with little turbulence or "excitement."

The best part of these flights for the pax seem to be the great
visibility, smooth ride, and quiet sightseeing, for a reasonable
price.
This isn't quite in line with the specs you suggest.

One of my pilot friends humped a bunch of rides in Hawaii. He thought
there
was a market for a terminal to the numbers 2-32 ride. Climb to 3000agl
then
due a vertical dive (with speed limiting brakes open) and pull out above
the
numbers and land. Of course for this, the chutes are required, which
limits
the load again.

In the UK, we did some evening rides for a group of fireman from the
local
fire college. Not much lift late in the date, but some really got off
on
a
four-loop cloverleaf with a beatup at the end.

A club near Houston reports having been approached by Six Flags about a
concept for winch launch and soar back. I suppose a couple of loops or
something similar might be the icing on cake.

Granted, this type of operation may not appeal to many of us, but there
may
be some other interest there.

Frank Whiteley


Naw, this stuff isn't to entertain the ride customers, it's to stave off
boredom for the ride pilots. You can give a ride customer all the thrills
they can handle with a steep turn and maybe a low-G pushover.

I fly as smoothly as possible while working any lift available. I babble
on
about beautiful scenery, long flights, high flights, using energy from the
sun and how wonderful it is that we can make our way across the sky with
just piloting skills. Then I point out that they too can become a pilot
in
a few weeks or months. They enjoy their ride and a few sign up for
lessons.

It seems to work a lot better in a Grob than in a 2-32 though.

Bill Daniels

We talking about two different things, carnival ride vs soaring promo. I
don't think the 4-seater really fits the soaring promo arena, but would be
just the ticket for Mr. Bill's or the Continental Divide ride. I don't see
300 sales though.

Frank

The Soaring ride Business is an interesting one! Many glider pilots
may not really know it and between the ride Pilots/instructors there
seem to be differences of opinion.

The seat arrangement should not be any problem. Remember, the 2-32 was
able to
cary two in the back. Another person in the front makes 4, three
passengers.
The Aircraft should be selflaunching, thus able to fly off any public
airport.

Soaring should be always attempted, showing off the sport. It is up to
the pilot to feel out what would be most impressive for the riders. My
Passengers are always amazed when they get an hr flight with an 8 min
engine run. This depends on how good local soaring conditions are.
When you have a passenger next to you, or a student the pilot can
really see the state of mind of the passenger.

Almost all the clubs in Europe give rides, this is how they keep the
kitty from getting empty. There are at least 3 com. operations in
Germany. More in France. The Clubs call them Schnupperfluege. Sniff
out the activity.

This kind of aircraft could be of more interest when Fuel goes up
more, not only for rides. Wanderflug! The powerplant prop
configuration has to be simple and flawless....I bet it is coming.

Think up!

Stemme S10V N 600PL
ASE

In article ,
Andreas Maurer wrote:

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 14:54:52 GMT, "Bill Daniels"
wrote:

Start with the need for 600 Kg cockpit payload.

600?
Aren't 400 more appropriate?

Bob suggested 300. But I think 400 is a good number unless you want to
fly it with an empty seat a lot of the time.



Cool idea. I like your 300+ number.
What are you going to use to tow this monster? A P-51 or an F4U?

One of these NZ jump-planes would work well:

http://www.utilityaircraft.com/

It can take a load of skydivers weighing 4400 lbs (up to 17 jumpers) to
12,000 ft in 12 mins. Stall is around 60 knots, best climb angle at 85
knots. So it's reasonably compatable with glider tow speeds and
certainly has the power.

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

F.L. Whiteley wrote:

In the UK, we did some evening rides for a group of fireman from the local
fire college. Not much lift late in the date, but some really got off on a
four-loop cloverleaf with a beatup at the end.

A club near Houston reports having been approached by Six Flags about a
concept for winch launch and soar back. I suppose a couple of loops or
something similar might be the icing on cake.

Granted, this type of operation may not appeal to many of us, but there may
be some other interest there.

I think that one could make a glider which did both fairly well.
The higher wing loading and less aspect ratio which appeals to the
pleasant ride also lend well for aerobatics. Perhaps not enough
for easy rolls, but certainly for loops.

So I certainly wouldn't want to restrict such a glider from loops, if
this didn't greatly increase the cost. It just seems from my experience
that most of the time when someone wants a "spicy" ride, steep turns,
30 degree dives with 30 degree pullup (apogee arcs), and full forward slips
seem to be exciting enough.

I personally think non-aerobatic glider flying is so interesting on its
own, especially the launch where you hear only the air going by
(no offense to the self-power guys) that it's neat enough.

Sure there are some hard cores who want a full aerobatic as their
very first ride, but the ones who can take it seem few and far between...

--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Bill Daniels wrote:

Naw, this stuff isn't to entertain the ride customers, it's to stave off
boredom for the ride pilots.

I know some ASEL CFIs guys who've spins on their intro rides just
to ease their boredom. 0/4 return customers on that one.

You can give a ride customer all the thrills
they can handle with a steep turn and maybe a low-G pushover.

I fly as smoothly as possible while working any lift available. I babble on
about beautiful scenery, long flights, high flights, using energy from the
sun and how wonderful it is that we can make our way across the sky with
just piloting skills. Then I point out that they too can become a pilot in
a few weeks or months. They enjoy their ride and a few sign up for lessons.

Yep. It seems if a customer wants gliding vs. airplane, the serenity is
more of a seller...

It seems to work a lot better in a Grob than in a 2-32 though.

2-32 seems like a couples thing, really. And you take the stick
out of the back anyway, so not really a seller for lessons as much...
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Earlier, "Bill Daniels" wrote:

...Nope, it needs 600 Kg to allow for
three 'super sized' customers.

I believe that trying to accommodate the maximum doesn't make good
economic sense. I still think that the way to maximize the economic
return is to optimize the vehicle for a cockpit weight that falls near
the middle of the bell curve for groups of four. And I'll bet that's
no where near 600 kg.

Bob K.

"Bob Kuykendall" wrote in message
om...
Earlier, "Bill Daniels" wrote:

...Nope, it needs 600 Kg to allow for
three 'super sized' customers.

I believe that trying to accommodate the maximum doesn't make good
economic sense. I still think that the way to maximize the economic
return is to optimize the vehicle for a cockpit weight that falls near
the middle of the bell curve for groups of four. And I'll bet that's
no where near 600 kg.

Bob K.

OK, I give up. How about 400 Kg cockpit load.

Bill Daniels

"soarski" wrote in message
om...

Soaring should be always attempted, showing off the sport. It is up to
the pilot to feel out what would be most impressive for the riders.

Yes, and figuring that out is a bit of an art. I like to indirectly ask,
starting by asking if they had ever been in a small plane before. Some like to
take the controls, some not. I learn more by hanging back and listening to
customers talk among themselves than any other way!

While doing rides, never miss a chance to soar with birds. I have
converted more than one nervous rider into an enthusiastic participant by simply
forming up on a bird. It also gives you a chance to explain that we are doing
the exact same thing that they are; thermalling. They also often ask if we can
fly into a cloud; I have to gently explain why that is not a great idea.

Vaughn