Student Pilot Gets Five Months In Prison

Dude wrote:

"Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired" wrote in message
news:jiQVd.21124$Sn6.18842@lakeread03...

Dude wrote:

If it weeds out a


few nut cases then it serves the purpose. Let's face it, it's the only
game in town.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


As an extremely honest person who has never used an illegal drug and has
served in the military I would like to disagree.

Undoubtedly, if we kept former military members from flying, we would
"weed out a few nut cases". If this is your standard for good law, you
need to stop voting.

That was a cheap shot. Have a nice day.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


I don't think it was all that cheap. If you want to amend your statement, I
would be glad to read what you really meant. Thoughts like the one you wrote
are much too common these days, and its getting more expensive everyday.


OK, I'll ammend it just for you. Your suggestion that keeping former
military pilots from flying would weed out a few nut cases was a cheap
shot. If as you said you had served in the military you'd know military
pilots go through a much more rigorous program than any PPL ever will.

I ignored the rest of your rant since none of it makes anymore sense
than "If this is your standard for good law, you need to stop voting."


Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Dude wrote:

What laws are the FAA breaking by asking such questions? Privacy? You
don't have to answer the questions and FAA doesn't have to issue you a
ticket. It's all voluntary.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


This whole "privilege" thing has been taken way too far by our government.
We will see how you feel after they come for your ticket.


What ticket? I am a 100% disabled vet.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

"Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired" wrote in message
news:ufRVd.21132$Sn6.2010@lakeread03...
Dude wrote:

"Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired" wrote in message
news:jiQVd.21124$Sn6.18842@lakeread03...

Dude wrote:

If it weeds out a


few nut cases then it serves the purpose. Let's face it, it's the only
game in town.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


As an extremely honest person who has never used an illegal drug and has
served in the military I would like to disagree.

Undoubtedly, if we kept former military members from flying, we would
"weed out a few nut cases". If this is your standard for good law, you
need to stop voting.

That was a cheap shot. Have a nice day.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


I don't think it was all that cheap. If you want to amend your
statement, I would be glad to read what you really meant. Thoughts like
the one you wrote are much too common these days, and its getting more
expensive everyday.
OK, I'll ammend it just for you. Your suggestion that keeping former
military pilots from flying would weed out a few nut cases was a cheap
shot. If as you said you had served in the military you'd know military
pilots go through a much more rigorous program than any PPL ever will.

I ignored the rest of your rant since none of it makes anymore sense than
"If this is your standard for good law, you need to stop voting."


Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Dan,

First, I did not specify military pilots, I said the whole military. Thus I
included myself. You took it personally, and it was not intended to be so.
Certainly, you met some nuts in the military. I spent more than a few days
worth of work trying to weed some of them out of the military, and would
rather them not be flying with me in the pattern.

Second, if you did stop reading, then you did a great job of blind cut and
paste.

Third, the statement you question for making no sense, makes perfect sense.

Fourth, you accused me of a cheap shot, so I gave you a chance to restate
your orignal comment - Not your accusatory, illogical, or weak defense of
it. It is EXACTLY the kind of reasoning politicians give when they propse
to take away our liberties for a small amount of security. So, I propose
that if you really meant what you said, you could do us a favor and stay
home on election day. And, as if you were one of those politicians, you now
defend your position by crying about the way I am taking your argument down
rather than defending your position or proving I am wrong.

My shot may be alleged to be cheap, but it is still correct and on target.

"Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired" wrote in message
news:kjRVd.21133$Sn6.7547@lakeread03...
Dude wrote:

What laws are the FAA breaking by asking such questions? Privacy? You
don't have to answer the questions and FAA doesn't have to issue you a
ticket. It's all voluntary.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


This whole "privilege" thing has been taken way too far by our
government. We will see how you feel after they come for your ticket.
What ticket? I am a 100% disabled vet.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

100% ?

What does that mean? You seem to be posting pretty well. You mean they
already took your license?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired wrote:

When you start
going to see a shrink or counselor that is one thing that will come up
when you fill out your initial paperwork. It is important to know when
evaluating the patient.

Let me see if I read you correctly he Someone who has a problem and
is getting treatment for it is in some way LESS healthy than someone has
the same problem but is not getting treatment.

Yeah right.

Frank

Frank van der Hulst wrote:

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired wrote:

When you start going to see a shrink or counselor that is one thing
that will come up when you fill out your initial paperwork. It is
important to know when evaluating the patient.


Let me see if I read you correctly he Someone who has a problem and
is getting treatment for it is in some way LESS healthy than someone has
the same problem but is not getting treatment.

Yeah right.

Frank

Believe it or not the FAA does look at things like that. When I was
first put on Norvasc for hypertension the FAA explained to me that would
disqualify me. My hypertension wasn't bad enough to get grounded yet
treating it would ground me. I think they still do that with
antidepressants.

However that wasn't the point I was making. I was explaining why the FAA
might want information about criminal behaviour.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Frank van der Hulst wrote:

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired wrote:

When you start
going to see a shrink or counselor that is one thing that will come up
when you fill out your initial paperwork. It is important to know when
evaluating the patient.

Let me see if I read you correctly he Someone who has a problem and
is getting treatment for it is in some way LESS healthy than someone has
the same problem but is not getting treatment.

Yeah right.

Frank
Sure that's what the FAA says anyway!
If you have had a blocked artery (such as I) and have had it 'fixed' by
angioplasty and stent (as I) and come back to run over 3500 miles a year
and compete in 33 running races a year (as I) you are much more dangerous
than some one who has had a massive coranary and just let their medical
expire. That is what the FAA says with SP license. I have to undergo $2000
- $3000 dollars worth of testing (thank heavens for insurance) each year to
maintain my license (medical) and if I apply for an issuance and they don't
like something (ANYTHING) I lose it and can not downgrade to a SP even
though the Coronary sufferer can self certify that he feels he is medically
fit and fly!
John
Just not fair!
PS I just sent my 'package' to the FAA about 2 months ago and they are
requesting a more 'detailed' write up from the cardiologist even though he
plainly says on the origanal paper work that the test were good and no
deteriation was noted. Kinda makes you nervous!

Jughugs wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

No, that is pretty well known. It is very hard for drug abusers to
quit, whether the drug is nicotine, alcohol or something else.

Past users are very much more likely to be future users.


Matt


Ok... well let's take your example then.. which is... apples and oranges*.
Should we NOT allow folks who consume nicotine and alcohol to fly? I'm sure
that would desimate over half of the ATP population for sure.

If it impairs their flying ability significantly, then yes.


*An ILLEGAL drug user is more likely to quit and stay that way than one of
the LEGAL drug consumers.

That may be true, but I've seen not data to suggest that. I've seen a
lot of evidence over the years, personally, that drug addicts have a
VERY hard time quitting permanently.


Matt

"StellaStarr" wrote in message
news:gdRVd.88876$tl3.31949@attbi_s02...
jls wrote:

Good luck, boys, getting by the moral character and fitness committee
for
that flying ticket.


There are a lot of things you can do that carry penalties. A felony
conviction removes your right to hold public office, or vote,

Be accurate, now. In some states a felony conviction does not deprive one
of the right to vote. Some people may even vote from behind prison walls.
In NC a convicted felon can vote, and felons in other states can vote too.
I would have to do a little research to come up with all of them.

The problem with the new airman medical form is not felonies based on drug
use or sale, or alcohol related convictions. The problem is with asking
about misdemeanors and infractions in one's past which are irrelevant to
flight safety. The sweeping new inquiry occurred after 9-11 and my doc, to
whom I pointed out the bothersome questions, was not even aware they were on
the form. "Hell," he says, "I didn't know they'd put that on there. What
are they trying to do?"

"Make felons of us all," it looks to me.



and in
some states you can't get that voting right back unless you file a
petition, wait, and hope somebody approves it. Of course, get a little
buzzed and miss a corner driving on a dark road, and the penalty's
death. You see people every day in the paper who paid that penalty, and
weren't asked if they approved.

Life may not be fair, but the FAA asks you to be honest. There's a good
chance they'll note it, file it, and give you the medical with no fuss.

Ja. Fuer dem Heimlands Securitaet. Sieg Heil!

If you're talking to me, Ma'am, I don't have a criminal record but as
someone who values the Bill of Rights and the privileges, guarantees, and
immunities against oppressive government assured in our Constitution, it
bothers me to see power grabs like these. As well as bleating sheep who go
along with them.

I know. It's not their job to play The Punisher. It's not your right
to hide that past, which after all is on legal record.

You are either being obtuse or haven't done your homework. I explained in
my long reply to Dan that about 8 pilots (whom I polled) had all answered
questions on their airman medical forms falsely. As a matter of fact the
form is designed to induce false answers. Who wants to admit that as a
juvenile he was convicted of joyriding the neighbor's car? In my opinion
these people are all worthy non-felon pilots, but their false answers
subjects them to felony indictments. Read the damn form. It's obvious you
haven't read the intrusive, meddlesome irrational thing which demands to
know if you've even been convicted of jaywalking, or some petty juvenile
offense long ago expunged. If you don't see the harm, the implications, the
dangers in that sweeping officious intrusiveness, then you may be suffering
from Rip Van Winkle syndrome. Or just thick?

Go ahead and tell your girlfriend your record's clear. It's your karma.
But don't lie to the FAA. You're asking for the privilege of getting a
pilot's certificate, and they're the folks who grant it, so you go by
their rules. That's the way it is, babe!

Sounds like a condescending German fishwife advising the neighbor's boy to
comply during early ascendancy of the Third Reich with all the new unheard
of legislation making violators subject to arrest and imprisonment for
fibbing on his application for license to take cabbages to market. All in
the name of safety and security.

"Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired" wrote in message
news:XuQVd.21127$Sn6.17071@lakeread03...
AINut wrote:

Even if it IS the "only game in town," it doesn't give the FAA, a
government agency, license to break the law.

snip

criminal behaviour don't belong in a medical exam. I say they do for
the simple reason they are evaluating you physically and mentally.
When you start going to see a shrink or counselor that is one thing
that will come up when you fill out your initial paperwork. It is
important to know when evaluating the patient.

While I don't agree with some of the logic used in FAA medical
determinations I do fully understand that if you want to fly, and the
agency that will allow you to do that has deemed certain questions
must be asked you have to honestly answer the questions. If it weeds
out a few nut cases then it serves the purpose. Let's face it, it's
the only game in town.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

What laws are the FAA breaking by asking such questions?

The Constitution is the supreme law of the land and so proclaims within its
four corners. Even privileges like licenses are not to be denied on the
basis of the government's pleasure, its graces, or favors. What conceivable
legitimacy does the government have in sticking its nose into one's
misdemeanor record on an airman medical form specifically designed for
inquiry into his health? What does the physician care if you've pleaded
guilty to speeding and had to go to driver improvement clinic in order to
remove points from your license?

And yes, there are protections of privacy implicit in the Constitution.
See the 4th, 9th, and 14th Amendments for details. I'm thinking it would
be the first time for you.



Privacy? You
don't have to answer the questions and FAA doesn't have to issue you a
ticket. It's all voluntary.

When you say a pilot's license is a privilege, just what do you mean by
that?

You're making a pre-WWII argument for 1930's Vaterland authoritarianism,
wherein privileges were summarily denied, without due process of law, or
licenses revoked with a waving of a wand, without a hearing, without notice
and an opportunity to be heard, and on any basis formerly considered
arbitrary and capricious.

I'll bet it doesn't bother you when people are punished for asserting their
fifth amendment rights to remain silent. What did you do during the
paranoia of the McCarthy era, sit on a subcommittee or go around getting
decent Americans fired?

We don't get our rights from government by some kind of a dole. They get
their power from us, from the consent of the governed and that goddamn
consent *CAN* be withdrawn.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired