Finish Gate Accident no. 2

"Andy Blackburn" wrote in message
...
At 16:00 27 March 2005, Bill Daniels wrote:

I think experienced pilot/observers can tell when a
pilot is
waiting for the ailerons to get a grip on the air.

In the event of an actual test, the pilot could brief
the observer that his
particular glider needs a non-standard technique and
the observer would
make
allowances for it.

Whenever I've made a fully ballasted takeoff in my
N2C, I've carefully
briefed both the wing runner and the tow pilot (as
well as the peanut
gallery who wanted to see a glider take off with 600
pounds of ballast.)
So
far, I haven't dropped a wing.

My 27B has ailerons with the chord of a popsicle stick.
I don't know what
speed I need to hold a wing up against a gust, but
when I'm full of water at
5,000' on a 95 degree day I want a heck of a fast wing
runner.

I'll take your point that an experienced observer can
pick out poor piloting
technique at any phase of flight.

I remain skeptical of this whole test idea. While you
might flunk some good
pilots, it's principal shortcoming is that you are
trying to catch something
that for even moderately skilled pilots happens relatively
infrequently, so
the odds of it being useful is low, plus you have to
set up the whole test
process on top of whatever else you're doing to run
a contest.

I still think it's best left to the subjective assessment
of the CD to determine
if someone
has a piloting deficiency.

9B

Agreed. Having been a CD, I do know when a pilot deserves a bollicking or a
refusal, having had to counsel 10000+ hour pilots on safety in the pattern
and refuse a weak link because the chain link was not a suitable substitute
for a Tost ring set. And also having had to call a day, which, in turn,
meant calling the contest.

Frank Whiteley

Andy Blackburn wrote:
At 23:30 27 March 2005, Bruce Hoult wrote:

Could headwind account for the 100% example? And tailwind

for the 75%?

In other words, your airspeed was not the same as your
ground speed?


I did a quick check at the time and in most cases there
was a light crosswind of 5-8 knots, so I ignored it.
Obviously a few knots at the high end makes a big difference
in energy (10 knots below redline costs 130 feet).
Maybe I'll do a more rigorous analysis.

9B



Wind gradient?

If you have a speed differential of a couple of knots between the 50' low and
the top of the pull up you are effectively getting "free" energy and will get a
higher apogee.
Since the finish line is generally set up downwind the pull up is into slower
moving air relative to the glider - Faster relative to the ground.
Look at it arithmetically - 100kt 50' up into a 15kt wind.
Pull up into headwind of 35kt - you got to slow an extra 20kt relative to the
ground. Pulling up harder allows you to convert the kinetic energy into
potential, (height)while retaining airspeed.

I know the argument that a glider flies and maintains energy relative to the
body of air it is flying in - but this only holds true if you simplify the model
to assume that the airmass is behaving homogeneously. A rapid transition between
air at different speeds is the technique used by albatrosses etc to soar the
oceans.

The greater the wind speed, and wind gradient the higher you are likely to be
able to pull up. I am not sure but at a guess I would say this would also work
to some degree for coss wind, as the relative wind speed would also tend to
increase (with increased track angle) to maintain ground track.

At 08:30 28 March 2005, Bruce wrote:
Wind gradient?

If you have a speed differential of a couple of knots
between the 50' low and
the top of the pull up you are effectively getting
'free' energy and will get a
higher apogee.

On reflection, it'll be pretty hard to figure this
out from flight logs, since even the new SeeYou wind
calculator doesn't work that low in the boundary layer
- so you won't see the gradient directly.

I would presume that you'll do better (higher) finishing
into the prevailing wind than going downwind since
the wind generally picks up with altitude between 0
and 500 feet.

9B

I would like to thank the experienced competion pilots who have shared
their knowledge and methods in this thread.

It concerns me that while I feel I have done a lot of research and have
read everything I have found on this subject, there just isn't a lot of
information out there to help the new competition pilot. Besides the
SRA guide (thanks J. Good) and some outdated books, is there further
and more up to date information available? I don't know any qualified
competitors who sho are wiling to school me personally. Is that the
only way to learn? What am I missing?

Perhaps when asking the question how to qualify pilots, shouldn't we be
looking at how to better train and educate them as well? I have
belonged to two clubs so far and frankly it is hard to get help in XC
let alone competition!

I may very well be missing something here but it seems to me there is a
scarcity of information and training available to help and encourage
those who desire to compete in our sport.

Please correct me (and show me where to gain more knowledge and skill)
if I am wrong in this! I would appreciate the help.

Quote: The greater the wind speed, and wind gradient the higher you are
likely to be
able to pull up. I am not sure but at a guess I would say this would
also work
to some degree for coss wind, as the relative wind speed would also
tend to
increase (with increased track angle) to maintain ground track.

Wouldn't this work only if you were going upwind? Most contest
finishes/pullups I've seen were downwind so a gradient would hurt, not
help you. Am I all wet on this?

Someone spoke earlier of the Albatross and their ability to work the
gradient. They work slightly downwind from true crosswind, gaining
speed (inertia), in the orographic lift at the top of the wave, and
then turn upwind abruptly allowing their inertial force and the wind
gradient to propel them up pretty high. This gives them the ability to
work upwind from wave system to wave system. They are able to soar
great distances at sea this way, and their pullups are into the wind...

Jack Womack

I remember about eight to nine years ago I started contest flying.
It was a very enjoyable transition. I came with the following
qualification to the contest circuit

1) I was comfortable flying my glider.
2) I had numerous land outs prior
3) I have a competitive spirit
After that I just did it.
I must not forget, the Reichman's Book.
You do not need formal training in cross country flying
but you should have attempted a few 300km flights and completed one, It
helps

You only can pickup so much from a book,
Only when flying can you internalize, remember and get better
A regional contest will get you up to speed in the hurry.

Regards
Udo

"Go" wrote in message
ups.com...
I would like to thank the experienced competion pilots who have shared
their knowledge and methods in this thread.

It concerns me that while I feel I have done a lot of research and have
read everything I have found on this subject, there just isn't a lot of
information out there to help the new competition pilot. Besides the
SRA guide (thanks J. Good) and some outdated books, is there further
and more up to date information available? I don't know any qualified
competitors who sho are wiling to school me personally. Is that the
only way to learn? What am I missing?

Perhaps when asking the question how to qualify pilots, shouldn't we be
looking at how to better train and educate them as well? I have
belonged to two clubs so far and frankly it is hard to get help in XC
let alone competition!

I may very well be missing something here but it seems to me there is a
scarcity of information and training available to help and encourage
those who desire to compete in our sport.

Please correct me (and show me where to gain more knowledge and skill)
if I am wrong in this! I would appreciate the help.

Don't know where you are located, but region 11 has several camps to
help out the new guys. Thermalling camp, cross-country camp, all sports
class contest at Air Sailing, NV.

In a nationals, Charlie will assign an old head to each neophyte. I was
helping my FNG (fine new guy) at Montague, right up until he tried to
get ahead of me on the score sheet. At that point, all assistance
ceased.

Contests seem intimidating, Just strike up a conversation and you will
find some friendly, helpful folks out there.
JJ

Reading about competitions is much more intimidating than actually
doing it.

Pre Requesits.

Be reasonably Confortably Thermaling with other gliders.
Be reasonably Confortable to attempt an off feild landing.
Read The Rules.
Bring a good Crew
Pick a contest area were landouts are pretty easy or at least you are
comfortable with.
Read to Rules.

Then go fly just to complete the tasks. Don't even try to win, just fly
safe and have fun. You might not even come in last.
Rules for the contest.

Understand how and when to start.
Don't Thermal with more gliders than you are comfortable with.
(I always left the gaggle when it got uncomfortable for me,
the only problem with this is everyone thinks I know something they
don't and follow me. I usually find a better thermal on my own anyway,
But then I am on top)

Understand how to know when you are in the turnpoints
Understand how to download you data logger.
Understand where the finish is.

Go have fun flying, don't do anything you are uncomfortable doing. You
will find you do push yourself better knowing there is a crew on the
ground waiting to come get you if you fall down.I have done more cross
country flights at contests than anywhere else and my 1st ones where at
contests with the exception of a few 50 mile X-countries from home.

I have never finished lower than 800 feet and have always flown a
normal pattern.

My standard operating procedure is try to be the 1st to start and not
the last to come back. I get to watch a lot of really good pilots pass
me and I get to thermal/fly with them for a bit until they leave me in
the dust.


I probably missed something, But instead of think of it as a competions
think of it a a bunch of pilots getting together to go flying.You will
learn more in one contest than you can ever read or practice for. I
have done 6 contests and am still just a beginner.


Brian Case
CFIIG/ASEL
HP16T N16VP

I appreciate the input. There are some very good points here.

I see I should have qualified my comments a bit. I have competed in
three contests so far. Two Sports and one Nationals. I attended an XC
camp at Air Sailing immediately prior to my first contest. I have been
out there doing it and a lot of the details of preparation and basic
competition flying are now fairly routine. (Although the first time I
was in a gaggle with 10 standard class sailplanes was fantastically
beautiful and intimidating at the same time! What a beautiful ballet.)

I am just looking at my progression and wondering how I can improve my
learning curve. Yes, I am being impatient. But when I see the people in
the top ten of a contest have been flying 20-30 years and I consider
having started when I was 49, I realize I probably don't have that much
time.

Don't get me wrong, I am not looking for an easy way to do this without
putting in the flying time and the effort. I am just looking for
reasources which will help me compete in a safe and competitive manner.


Word of mouth sharing of knowledge can be as bad as it is good.
Especially when you are talking about safety in competition. Consider
that at my next contest I sit down and talk to a pilot who I have just
seen make a few really nice high speed and fairly low finishes and he
tells me how he does it. What if this guy is an accident waiting to
happen, someone who has incorrect assumptions about how this should be
done?

If there is a concern amoungst comp. pilots regarding proper and safe
finish methods perhaps something should be written and posted on the
SRA web page? I have certainly learned something from this thread. Give
people the correct information up front. How about for other topics as
well?

In article . com,
wrote:

I was
helping my FNG (fine new guy) at Montague, right up until he tried to
get ahead of me on the score sheet. At that point, all assistance
ceased.

JJ

It's kind of bittersweet when your students start getting better
than you are, eh?

Dr. Mark J. Boyd
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Mark J. Boyd