Human factors RECKLESSNESS

"Stewart Kissel" wrote in
message ...
At 03:30 29 April 2005, Dudley Henriques wrote:

Snip------

Somewhere in my aviation library is a quote that can
be summarized as...'Showing off with an aircraft is
a good way to get killed'.

I use that theme combined with the fact that nothing
we do in gliders is worth risking our lives unnecesarily
for...

And no, that does not meant we don't go fly....and
take acceptable risks...


Good point. Any advice to "never take risks" is likely to be ignored under
some circumstances. "Never take stupid risks" is more likely to be
acceptable.

When confronted with a situation involving risks, I try to do a quick
"upside/downside" analysis. This is a sort of. "What do I gain if this
works?" vs. "What do I lose if it doesn't?" Since gliding is a sport, it's
hard to see this analysis supporting much risk except, perhaps, for a pilot
two points out of first place in a national contest on the last day.

Over the years I have lost a number of friends and acquaintances to glider
aerobatics. This leads me to the view that glider aerobatics is usually a
"stupid risk" since it rarely passes the "upside/downside" analysis. For
me, an adrenaline rush is not a reward but punishment for a mistake. I try
to avoid it.

It's possibly worth adding that risks appear differently to pilots with
different levels of experience and in different situations. I was once
criticized for an XC over what appeared to the critic as unlandable terrain.
What he didn't know was that I had previously carefully surveyed the terrain
in question by car and found several safe landing areas and noted their GPS
coordinates. I was always in gliding range to a safe landing area although
it appeared otherwise to this critic.

Or, possibly, he regarded paved airports as the only safe landing areas.
This seems to have become a widely held opinion. Off-airport landings seem
to hold a horror for many pilots these days even though they can be much
more convenient and less hassle than many airports where gliders are
regarded as a nuisance.

Bill Daniels

"jsmith" wrote in message news:J1bce.941

Robert A "Bob" Hoover was a military and civilian pilot that did things
with airplanes others said couldn't be done.

Mr. Hoover, however, is credited by many of the best pilots in the history
of aviation to be the best pilot in the history of aviation.

Bob Hoover can do an 8-point roll, power-off, in a cargo plane, glide it
around the pattern and stop it on a dime. I, personally, would not attempt
to do that.

'Course, I've never flown a roll in an airplane, either. I know, I
know...it's a sad thing. One of these days....
-c

Bill,

That was well written. Yes,
we all take risks, we just need to
evaluate the payoffs.

I'm particularly aware of the
'unknown unknowns' which
is to say 'you don't know what
you don't know.' I remember
putting on a chute to go do
some rolls in a plane (an
AB-experimental). I didn't
know why I was wearing a chute,
it isn't a legal requirement, but I wore it anyway.

So I dive the thing like crazy because
it is super draggy and underpowered.
There just isn't enough energy, engine,
aileron, and skill at this C.G. to keep positive G's.
Fuel comes pouring out
of the poorly sealed header tank.

Of course I'm exaggerating a bit, it
wasn't a ton of fuel, but it was enough
that I'm glad I wasn't smoking, since
it leaked into the open cockpit.

If I'd caught fire, I had 5,000 feet of altitude to
bail out, some skydiving
training, a plane over an almost deserted area, a cell-phone
and
portable ELT that would have come
with me for the bailout, and I'd
practiced and rehearsed safe exit
on the ground.

So I wasn't overly concerned about the
fuel spill, and just waited and in a few
seconds it dissipated.

It was a great lesson, a measured risk,
and I never ran out of OK options.
I learned a lot, too.

At 16:00 29 April 2005, Bill Daniels wrote:

'Stewart Kissel' wrote in
message ...
At 03:30 29 April 2005, Dudley Henriques wrote:

Snip------

Somewhere in my aviation library is a quote that can
be summarized as...'Showing off with an aircraft is
a good way to get killed'.

I use that theme combined with the fact that nothing
we do in gliders is worth risking our lives unnecesarily
for...

And no, that does not meant we don't go fly....and
take acceptable risks...


Good point. Any advice to 'never take risks' is likely
to be ignored under
some circumstances. 'Never take stupid risks' is more
likely to be
acceptable.

When confronted with a situation involving risks, I
try to do a quick
'upside/downside' analysis. This is a sort of. 'What
do I gain if this
works?' vs. 'What do I lose if it doesn't?' Since
gliding is a sport, it's
hard to see this analysis supporting much risk except,
perhaps, for a pilot
two points out of first place in a national contest
on the last day.

Over the years I have lost a number of friends and
acquaintances to glider
aerobatics. This leads me to the view that glider
aerobatics is usually a
'stupid risk' since it rarely passes the 'upside/downside'
analysis. For
me, an adrenaline rush is not a reward but punishment
for a mistake. I try
to avoid it.

It's possibly worth adding that risks appear differently
to pilots with
different levels of experience and in different situations.
I was once
criticized for an XC over what appeared to the critic
as unlandable terrain.
What he didn't know was that I had previously carefully
surveyed the terrain
in question by car and found several safe landing areas
and noted their GPS
coordinates. I was always in gliding range to a safe
landing area although
it appeared otherwise to this critic.

Or, possibly, he regarded paved airports as the only
safe landing areas.
This seems to have become a widely held opinion. Off-airport
landings seem
to hold a horror for many pilots these days even though
they can be much
more convenient and less hassle than many airports
where gliders are
regarded as a nuisance.

Bill Daniels


Mark J. Boyd

Dudley Henriques wrote:

Everything Bob does and has done in aerobatics with each and every aircraft
he has flown professionally for that purpose has required special waivers
from competent authority.

And certainly an aircraft inspected more often than your average ragged
out trainer. I saw footage of a Hoover wannabe foldering up the wings
on a Partenavia during an airshow.

Since gliding is a sport, it's hard to see this analysis
supporting much risk except, perhaps, for a pilot two
points out of first place in a national contest on
the last day.

Snipped from Bill...

This is something I have thought about a lot...and
excuse the length of this story I will present...but
it struck me as a good way to decide what amount of
risk makes sense.

A friend of mine did an epic soaring flight one day...possibly
a state or national record if he choose to submit it...which
he was not interested in. Upon encoutering a group
of his buddies at the local Salida watering hole, and
being quite pumped up about his flight...he blurted
out a quick report to them.

Following a brief silence, one of his friends replied,
'Gee, that sounds sorta interesting, but Fred over
there hit a triple in the softball game!!'

I think that probably summarizes the fact that we fly
only for our own sense of accomplishment. And to risk
it all for something that most others see as no more
significant then a triple in a softball game...wel
that does not make sense to me.

"Stewart Kissel" wrote in
message ...
Since gliding is a sport, it's hard to see this analysis
supporting much risk except, perhaps, for a pilot two
points out of first place in a national contest on
the last day.

Snipped from Bill...

This is something I have thought about a lot...and
excuse the length of this story I will present...but
it struck me as a good way to decide what amount of
risk makes sense.

A friend of mine did an epic soaring flight one day...possibly
a state or national record if he choose to submit it...which
he was not interested in. Upon encoutering a group
of his buddies at the local Salida watering hole, and
being quite pumped up about his flight...he blurted
out a quick report to them.

Following a brief silence, one of his friends replied,
'Gee, that sounds sorta interesting, but Fred over
there hit a triple in the softball game!!'

I think that probably summarizes the fact that we fly
only for our own sense of accomplishment. And to risk
it all for something that most others see as no more
significant then a triple in a softball game...wel
that does not make sense to me.

Well, Stu, it USED to be a big deal to win the US Nationals. I guess that
speaks to the state of competition in the US these days.

Bill Daniels

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
...
Dudley Henriques wrote:

Everything Bob does and has done in aerobatics with each and every
aircraft
he has flown professionally for that purpose has required special waivers
from competent authority.

And certainly an aircraft inspected more often than your average ragged
out trainer. I saw footage of a Hoover wannabe foldering up the wings
on a Partenavia during an airshow.

Yes; this type of thing is unfortunate. Hoover is very aware of it and
speaks to GA pilots quite often on safety issues. He's always been quite
candid and truthful; especially when discussing his own mistakes.
Copy-cat issues with aerobatic wannabes are quite prevalent in aviation
unfortunately. All of us in the demonstration community do our best to nip
it in the bud when we see it happening. This thread is a good example of
that. Hopefully, I'm well known enough that when I come down on something
like rolling a Cessna 150, pilots, including the 150 driver will listen to
me. It's important that well respected pilots like you and Margy speak out
as well..as you have here. God knows if any of us do any good when things
like this come up. Lord I hope so! I know through the years I've talked on
it many times in aerobatic lectures I've given, and pilots like Hoover talk
on still today.
Dudley

jsmith wrote:

Robert A "Bob" Hoover was a military and civilian pilot that did things
with airplanes others said couldn't be done.

NW_PILOT isn't Bob Hoover.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

"NW_PILOT" wrote in message
...

No it is my concept of life. Plain in simple lifeis short! You never know
how long you have. So live it like every day is your last.


I'm a career Special Forces officer. I've made my living with and around
firearms, explosives, parachutes, and other risky things. Not to mention
roaming around places like Iraq trying not to get shot or blown up. Two of
my favorite off-duty pursuits are aerobatic flying and mountaineering. So
I'm fairly well acquianted with risk.

Here's the thing: it's not about taking stupid chances in search of an
adrenaline rush. It's about controlling your environment, mastering the
challenges set before you. That means gathering information, knowing all
the risks, having the right skills, and taking appropriate measures to
ensure the outcome is positive. Every time.

If you live like every day is your last, then it will become a
self-fulfilling prophesy. It's a BS attitude. Your mentality should be "I
may die, but it ain't gonna be today." Live to fly (or climb, or jump, or
fight) another day.

I don't know Bob Hoover, but I'm willing to bet that his attitude is closer
to mine than to yours. I've known guys with your attitude. Some of them
grew out of it. The others are dead.

I don't blame you for the roll. I blame your CFI. You, as a student,
cannot be criticized for trusting your CFI to advise you. I probably would
have done the same thing 10 years ago, when I didn't know better. Your CFI
should lose his instructor status, if not his flight privs.

But that highlights the big danger in these kind of endeavors. You do the
right thing by seeking help from an experienced person, but what if that
person turns out to be an idiot? All I can say is be careful who you trust,
seek second opinions, and look for appropriate certifications. One of the
saddest things about the NTSB accident reports are all the stories of
friends and family members killed by jackass pilots doing stupid things.

"Ed H" wrote in message
...

"NW_PILOT" wrote in message
...

No it is my concept of life. Plain in simple lifeis short! You never know
how long you have. So live it like every day is your last.


I'm a career Special Forces officer. I've made my living with and around
firearms, explosives, parachutes, and other risky things. Not to mention
roaming around places like Iraq trying not to get shot or blown up. Two
of my favorite off-duty pursuits are aerobatic flying and mountaineering.
So I'm fairly well acquianted with risk.

Here's the thing: it's not about taking stupid chances in search of an
adrenaline rush. It's about controlling your environment, mastering the
challenges set before you. That means gathering information, knowing all
the risks, having the right skills, and taking appropriate measures to
ensure the outcome is positive. Every time.

If you live like every day is your last, then it will become a
self-fulfilling prophesy. It's a BS attitude. Your mentality should be
"I may die, but it ain't gonna be today." Live to fly (or climb, or jump,
or fight) another day.

I don't know Bob Hoover, but I'm willing to bet that his attitude is
closer to mine than to yours. I've known guys with your attitude. Some
of them grew out of it. The others are dead.

I don't blame you for the roll. I blame your CFI. You, as a student,
cannot be criticized for trusting your CFI to advise you. I probably
would have done the same thing 10 years ago, when I didn't know better.
Your CFI should lose his instructor status, if not his flight privs.

But that highlights the big danger in these kind of endeavors. You do the
right thing by seeking help from an experienced person, but what if that
person turns out to be an idiot? All I can say is be careful who you
trust, seek second opinions, and look for appropriate certifications. One
of the saddest things about the NTSB accident reports are all the stories
of friends and family members killed by jackass pilots doing stupid
things.

It's exactly this philosophy that kept me alive through an entire career of
test flying and demonstrating high performance airplanes at low altitude.
And you're right about Hoover also. I know him, and his philosophy IS
exactly as you have stated here.
Thank you for your service,
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot; CFI; Retired
dhenriquestrashatearthlinktrashdotnet
(take out the trash :-)