Class A airspace

Guess we will never know...

Airspace in question is 500-17999 07:15 to 23:30 (local) 7 days a week
including holidays.


Ramy Yanetz wrote:
Maybe the airspace was cold? If so, the pilot should add a comment about it.

Ramy

wrote in message
ups.com...
Forget Class A, how about the guy that infringes on restricted airspace
and STILL submits the flight on OLC in order to win a major contest!!

Pressure differences etc can be explained but ploughing through
restricted airspace in this time of GPS is not excusable.

Al


Stewart Kissel wrote:
Before data loggers and the OLC...pilots had no record
of how high they flew other then a barograph, and no
doubt Class A was getting busted. What irks me is
not someone close to Class A...but those that deliberatley
violate and then post their flights. This behaviour
is bad for our sport on a couple of levels...so I whole-heartedly
support Doug and the OLC bunch on keeping an eye on
it. We are much to small a group to be nothing but
dust-in-the-wind if a glider brings down an airliner.
An those flying in busy airspace are to be commended
for using transponders...

Within reason I think a little self-policing can go
a long way, because we as pilots have a much better
idea of what is going on then the FAA(for the most
part). Flame shield activated.
But the pilot community is responsible for reinforcement,
and rewarding
pilots who break the rules gives negative reinforcement.
Aside from the
regulatory issues, it is also unsportsmanlike conduct.
So, we will
remove OLC flight claims that show ovbious violation
of Class-A
airspace without a reasonable explanation. This is
not Orwell's 'Big
Brother' it's more like Big Brothers and Big Sisters.

I'm with you, Doug, but what is 'obvious'? Sounds like
a sticky little
detail. Let us know when the SSA/OLC bunch get it figured
out, will you?


Jack

wrote:
Guess we will never know...

Airspace in question is 500-17999 07:15 to 23:30 (local) 7 days a week
including holidays.

If you mean R4816S, I've received permission several times to enter on
weekends, and at least once on a weekday. The Fallon folks pretty much
fly Monday through Friday only. What contest?

Yes he should.

Al

Ramy Yanetz wrote:
Maybe the airspace was cold? If so, the pilot should add a comment about it.

Ramy

wrote in message
ups.com...
Forget Class A, how about the guy that infringes on restricted airspace
and STILL submits the flight on OLC in order to win a major contest!!

Pressure differences etc can be explained but ploughing through
restricted airspace in this time of GPS is not excusable.

Al


Stewart Kissel wrote:
Before data loggers and the OLC...pilots had no record
of how high they flew other then a barograph, and no
doubt Class A was getting busted. What irks me is
not someone close to Class A...but those that deliberatley
violate and then post their flights. This behaviour
is bad for our sport on a couple of levels...so I whole-heartedly
support Doug and the OLC bunch on keeping an eye on
it. We are much to small a group to be nothing but
dust-in-the-wind if a glider brings down an airliner.
An those flying in busy airspace are to be commended
for using transponders...

Within reason I think a little self-policing can go
a long way, because we as pilots have a much better
idea of what is going on then the FAA(for the most
part). Flame shield activated.
But the pilot community is responsible for reinforcement,
and rewarding
pilots who break the rules gives negative reinforcement.
Aside from the
regulatory issues, it is also unsportsmanlike conduct.
So, we will
remove OLC flight claims that show ovbious violation
of Class-A
airspace without a reasonable explanation. This is
not Orwell's 'Big
Brother' it's more like Big Brothers and Big Sisters.

I'm with you, Doug, but what is 'obvious'? Sounds like
a sticky little
detail. Let us know when the SSA/OLC bunch get it figured
out, will you?


Jack

Have you read the Notam's on GPS accuracy. It is entirely possible the
pilot was clear of the Restricted airspace. I have observed GPS to be
off by as much as 5 miles when these notams are in effect. Very
disconcerting when your GPS says you are at the airport and all you can
see is sage brush.

Brian

wrote:
Forget Class A, how about the guy that infringes on restricted airspace
and STILL submits the flight on OLC in order to win a major contest!!

Pressure differences etc can be explained but ploughing through
restricted airspace in this time of GPS is not excusable.

Al


Stewart Kissel wrote:
Before data loggers and the OLC...pilots had no record
of how high they flew other then a barograph, and no
doubt Class A was getting busted. What irks me is
not someone close to Class A...but those that deliberatley
violate and then post their flights. This behaviour
is bad for our sport on a couple of levels...so I whole-heartedly
support Doug and the OLC bunch on keeping an eye on
it. We are much to small a group to be nothing but
dust-in-the-wind if a glider brings down an airliner.
An those flying in busy airspace are to be commended
for using transponders...

Within reason I think a little self-policing can go
a long way, because we as pilots have a much better
idea of what is going on then the FAA(for the most
part). Flame shield activated.
But the pilot community is responsible for reinforcement,
and rewarding
pilots who break the rules gives negative reinforcement.
Aside from the
regulatory issues, it is also unsportsmanlike conduct.
So, we will
remove OLC flight claims that show ovbious violation
of Class-A
airspace without a reasonable explanation. This is
not Orwell's 'Big
Brother' it's more like Big Brothers and Big Sisters.

I'm with you, Doug, but what is 'obvious'? Sounds like
a sticky little
detail. Let us know when the SSA/OLC bunch get it figured
out, will you?


Jack

The date in question was not subject to GPS testing.

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/gpsno...terference.pdf

Al

Brian wrote:
Have you read the Notam's on GPS accuracy. It is entirely possible the
pilot was clear of the Restricted airspace. I have observed GPS to be
off by as much as 5 miles when these notams are in effect. Very
disconcerting when your GPS says you are at the airport and all you can
see is sage brush.

Brian

wrote:
Forget Class A, how about the guy that infringes on restricted airspace
and STILL submits the flight on OLC in order to win a major contest!!

Pressure differences etc can be explained but ploughing through
restricted airspace in this time of GPS is not excusable.

Al


Stewart Kissel wrote:
Before data loggers and the OLC...pilots had no record
of how high they flew other then a barograph, and no
doubt Class A was getting busted. What irks me is
not someone close to Class A...but those that deliberatley
violate and then post their flights. This behaviour
is bad for our sport on a couple of levels...so I whole-heartedly
support Doug and the OLC bunch on keeping an eye on
it. We are much to small a group to be nothing but
dust-in-the-wind if a glider brings down an airliner.
An those flying in busy airspace are to be commended
for using transponders...

Within reason I think a little self-policing can go
a long way, because we as pilots have a much better
idea of what is going on then the FAA(for the most
part). Flame shield activated.
But the pilot community is responsible for reinforcement,
and rewarding
pilots who break the rules gives negative reinforcement.
Aside from the
regulatory issues, it is also unsportsmanlike conduct.
So, we will
remove OLC flight claims that show ovbious violation
of Class-A
airspace without a reasonable explanation. This is
not Orwell's 'Big
Brother' it's more like Big Brothers and Big Sisters.

I'm with you, Doug, but what is 'obvious'? Sounds like
a sticky little
detail. Let us know when the SSA/OLC bunch get it figured
out, will you?


Jack

The reason for the Angst about the airspace and us pleasure users is
not about a
1000' (+- altitude errors) infraction of class A airspace, its about
the public crying bloody murder if glider drills an airliner with 150
people on board.

The government officials would love nothing more than to ban ALL
pleasure traffic from the skies if they could.......all we need to do
is give them a reason.

We are maybe 50 thousand people who enjoy the air for pleasure at the
will of the other 300 Million people who live here in the US.

There is no significant financial benefit from us 50 thousand pleasure
flyers, and in fact we are noisy, annoying and scary to at least 50
million of those people.

You see, if we were to kill any significant of them and they got ****ed
off about it....what do you think would happen?

Do you think they would blame the airliners or their pilots....some
might.....but most of the others would say that we dont HAVE to be up
there and are just doing it for kicks anyway.....and have no qualms
about shutting us down.

It was interesting to note how the incident about the Jet that ran down
a glider at 16,000' in Minden Monday.

A reporter described the even as a "Glider hit the Jet" as if he
purposely failed to avoid the jet and aimed for it......I know that
sounds stupid, but it reveals the perception of who needs to do the
avoiding. Basically we are up there for fun and better stay out of
everyones way.

Same thing many years ago when another jet ran down a Cessna near San
Diego that was in contact with the controllers as he was practicing
landings etc.......the loss of life was total with 150+ dead from the
airliner. Again it was the publics perception that the Cessna got in
the way of the jet and was the cause of the accident, when it was the
jet or controllers that screwed up.

Lets not give anyone reason to question why we need to be in the air.

We should NEVER condone airspace violations or willingly accept and
document them, let alone the very organization that governs us, lest we
dig our own graves.

THAT is the point of all this banter!!!!

Ray

jb92563 wrote:
The reason for the Angst about the airspace and us pleasure users is
not about a
1000' (+- altitude errors) infraction of class A airspace, its about
the public crying bloody murder if glider drills an airliner with 150
people on board.
snip
We should NEVER condone airspace violations or willingly accept and
document them, let alone the very organization that governs us, lest we
dig our own graves.

THAT is the point of all this banter!!!!

Ray

We may not be able to aviod negaive consequences, even if we are doing
everything by the book. But if we are not doing everything by the book,
we are likely to have the book thrown at us collectively, not just
individually.