The SSA-OLC

Hi Yuliy,

Congratulations on taking the fun out of the OLC. Congratulations on making
some very helpful volunteers very frustrated. Congratulations on
discouraging cross country flight.

I for one am a big fan of the OLC and I love to promote cross-country
flight.

I would not be in the least bit sorry if I never read any more postings from
you, but it is an open forum and I like that about it.

Paul Remde

"Yuliy Gerchikov" wrote in
message ...
KM,

Good points and observations,

"KM" wrote in message
ups.com...

I am new to the R.A.S

I too am new to the RAS (first post in 2001) and, according to some of the
loudest proponents of SSA-OLC, should not be allowed to state my opinions
here. But I'll venture some anyway ...before SSA takes over R.A.S and
turns it into SSA-RAS with its own policies and politics.

we have a active Yahoo group
where pilots post flights during the season.

Oh Horrors! You mean, you can post your flights, and no one will be
scrutinizing them for FAR violations? No one will be "guarding" the
community from the "bad apples"? No one will imply, without bothering
themselves with facts, that some pilots "consistently fly outside the
rules"? No one will tell you what you can or can't post there? No one will
tell you which flights you can or can't look at and learn from? Wow...
what a reckless concept. We haven't seen anything so disturbingly lax here
on OLC since the sanitation of traces started under SSA rule. Certainly
your Yahoo group is an unfortunate oversight on the SSA's part. Good thing
you have mentioned it here, so it can be looked at and fixed soon. What is
the URL?

This is not a contest, just
a way to report on the local happenings.

Aha! That must be it. Obviously, the reason SSA-OLC has to be so different
is the "C" in its name.

judging by the gist of
most of the comments on the "Sunset" thread the SSA OLC is not for
educational purposes, but much more of a hard core contest.

Here is the paradox. For educational purposes is, indeed, how most people
use OLC -- but those who own it now in the US insist on running it as a
hard core contest.

How did the SSA get a
monopoly on the OLC in the US,

Beats me!

and why did they change its intent?

Oh, this one is simple. Because they care about us -- what we say, what we
see, how we look to the feds. It's the Serve and Protect thing, you see.

Another thing I found during my research on the SSA website was a memo
regarding FARs.It started out with "The SSA is not out to interpret or
enforce FARs"

Interesting finding -- especially considering how easily some SSA
officials pronounce certain pilots and flights to be "in violation of
FARs".

Now let me state that I fly for a living, and I
have every motivation BOTH from a monitary standpoint and a safety
standpoint to follow the regs, but lets say my flight recorder does
something stupid and now I have the same outfit that I pay dues to
HELPING the FAA come after me?Bizarre

If you fly for a living, then you certainly, definitely, absolutely,
positively NEVER EVER want to post any flights that have ANY chance or
breaking ANY rules. Did you get it? Not even the slightest possibility of
violation. The rest of the flights you can post -- just make absolutely
sure that even with the ever-increasing level of scrutiny no one will ever
find (or suggest) and "report" any violations in them.

For example, you definitely don't want to post any ridge flights, because
most of them *provably* violate FAR 91.119(c) -- even though this
violation is not (yet?) in the SSA's "no-no list" and is inexplicably "OK"
for SSA-OLC. You also don't want to post any flights that look like
running the cloud streets (easily recognizable by high-speed flat "tops"
and little or no thermalling for extended periods of time), because
somebody may report you, alleging cloud clearance violations. For the same
reason do not post any wave flights on days when medium to high RH was
observed at your flight altitudes.

This list, of course, can go on and on, depending on how picky,
knowledgeable and motivated our volunteer "inspectors" are. Everything
else you can post ...well, *somewhat* confidently. If you feel lucky.

if a pilot were to post an ocasional short flight,
say 2 to 3 hundred miles about once a week, is he gonna get laughed at?

That's a new definition of "short" to me! In fact, posting "2 to 3
hundred miles about once a week" will put you high enough on the score
sheet to attract a lot of attention -- and scrutiny -- to your flights. So
keep in mind what you might not want to post.

is there a way to bypass the SSA-OLC (and forgo all the
politics and flaming), and just post to the OLC in Germany?

One would wish... Alas, there is no such way. The SSA, as you correctly
pointed above, has a monopoly on OLC in this country. Every flight flown
entirely within US borders must be submitted to SSA-OLC -- or not at all.

K. Urban
--
Yuliy

Paul Remde wrote:
Hi Yuliy,

Congratulations on taking the fun out of the OLC. Congratulations on making
some very helpful volunteers very frustrated. Congratulations on
discouraging cross country flight.

Paul, let me tell you what is taking the "fun" out of OLC.It was the
post from Doug on another part of this thread that explained how we can
take the sun angle down to 90 point some odd thousand of a degree so he
can measure sunset to the second.Somehow you and Doug have taken the
SSA mandate to remove flights that make us look bad down to the second?
Is this "fun" for you?How about we post a history of the 500 millbar
charts so we can correct everyones pressure altitude readout down to
the inch?When I started this thread I was hoping to get some insight
from real world OLC participants after all the flaming I read on the
"sunset " thread.Now I am begining to see where all the contention is
originating.I kind of doubt the SSA OLC board had this in mind when
they ask you to remove posts from
pilots who have busted a reg.

I would not be in the least bit sorry if I never read any more postings from
you

Do you have to get personal?Yuliy's post was kinda funny (Made me
laugh).You called my post useless and now you suggest who shouldnt post
here.As a business owner, you might want to consider how you are coming
off.I spoke with you a few weeks ago about a 302 upgrade that I am
planning this winter.Has it occured that you are not the only Cambridge
dealer around?

Paul Remde

KM wrote:
Paul Remde wrote:
Hi Yuliy,

Congratulations on taking the fun out of the OLC. Congratulations on making
some very helpful volunteers very frustrated. Congratulations on
discouraging cross country flight.

Paul, let me tell you what is taking the "fun" out of OLC.It was the
post from Doug on another part of this thread that explained how we can
take the sun angle down to 90 point some odd thousand of a degree so he
can measure sunset to the second.Somehow you and Doug have taken the
SSA mandate to remove flights that make us look bad down to the second?

You aren't getting that from Doug's posts: he has consistently said
there isn't a hard number for various reason, as have other posters. The
claim that the SSA is going to ask a pilot to remove a flight because it
is a few seconds, or even minutes, over is wrong.

You are making this far more difficult than it is. You really need to
skip this thread, do some flying, post your flights on the OLC, and sit
back and enjoy looking at the flights the other pilots are doing and are
happily posing every day.

Is this "fun" for you?How about we post a history of the 500 millbar
charts so we can correct everyones pressure altitude readout down to
the inch?

There is no need to do this, as the information is already in the flight
file - it's the elevation of the departure and arrival airports. This
will be adequate for almost all the flights. If, for unusual weather
situations (perhaps a frontal passage) or flights that cover a very
large area, an accurate surface barometric pressure is needed in middle
of the flight to resolve what appears to be a gross violation of an
altitude limit, that is readily available online from a variety of
sources. You don't need the 500 millibar charts, and we don't need to do
it to the inch to resolve an excess of hundreds of feet.

I'm surprised a professional pilot would make such a statement about
atltitude measurement. Don't you ever have get a barometric pressure
reading to correct your altimeter while you are flying?

When I started this thread I was hoping to get some insight
from real world OLC participants

You've gotten plenty of insight from real world participants who have
posted for years will no calls to remove their flights, but you appear
to ignore it in favor of a few pilots unhappy with posting limitations
on flights that show "substantial" variations from the FARS. Since you
plan to fly well within the FARs, you should know by now that YOU will
have no problems. So, why do you continue to worry about this?

after all the flaming I read on the
"sunset " thread.Now I am begining to see where all the contention is
originating.I kind of doubt the SSA OLC board had this in mind when
they ask you to remove posts from
pilots who have busted a reg.

I would not be in the least bit sorry if I never read any more postings from
you

Do you have to get personal?Yuliy's post was kinda funny (Made me
laugh).You called my post useless and now you suggest who shouldnt post
he

Paul never called your post "useless". At least, I couldn't find it,
even with a Google Groups search, but if you'll point out the post, I'll
be happy to read it. And, he did not suggest Yuily shouldn't post here,
only that he didn't want to read his posts.

As a business owner, you might want to consider how you are coming
off.I spoke with you a few weeks ago about a 302 upgrade that I am
planning this winter.Has it occured that you are not the only Cambridge
dealer around?

I hope he hasn't considered it when it comes to posting here, as I think
we'd lose some very useful comments. I'm appalled that you consider
Paul's stand one issue is a suitable reason to buy somewhere else, and
attempt to silence him with an economic threat.

If Paul's only interest in the sport was to suck as much money off the
participants, he'd just be posting happy talk about all the great stuff
he has to sell you. Paul is committed to this sport because he thinks
it's a great one, and he works hard at making it better. He does this in
a variety of ways, from very helpful comparison tables on his website,
to running glider software classes at the conventions, and now the
Contest Manager for the 2007 18M/Open Nationals.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:KlWSg.10690$Wi1.5228@trnddc06...
Since you plan to fly well within the FARs, you should know by now that
YOU will have no problems. So, why do you continue to worry about this?

Eric, only because you have posted this thought for, like, the third time, I
have to mention this:

Don't you recognize the "It can't happen to me" attitude?

All you are telling this inquiring pilot is "come on, post your flights --
nothing will go wrong". All I am telling him is "be careful about what you
post" -- which, after all, is exactly what SSA has been telling us lately. I
am telling him that he should expect (and will encounter) much higher level
of vigilance on today's SSA-OLC compared to his nice and cozy local Yahoo
group. Can you argue with that? I think we actually agree more that we
disagree. -- Yuliy

Eric Greenwell wrote:
You aren't getting that from Doug's posts: he has consistently said
there isn't a hard number for various reason, as have other posters. The
claim that the SSA is going to ask a pilot to remove a flight because it
is a few seconds, or even minutes, over is wrong.

Eric, and everyone else on this thread, let me apologize for the harsh
tone of my last post.It has been cheerfully stricken from the record.
The situation as I see it is this; Someone posted the minutes from a
SSA board meeting elswhere on R.A.S. where they decided to remove any
posts to OLC that could make the SSA look bad.Now, all Monica jokes
aside, the SSA had
to define "bad".Judging from some of the posts here, and the private
emails I have recieved over this thread, the issue is one of
interpritation and to a lesser degree, jurisdiction.I dont bring this
up to argue FAR issues, I brought it up because I dont want my OLC
postings to be scrutinized down to the Nth detail.IMHO this is what
would take the fun out of it.
I went on the OLC site for the first time a few days ago, and I was
fasinated by it.I looked up flights out of some of the places I have
flown at over the years and came across some old buddies flights and it
was pretty cool.My point is that I never thought to question the
legality of any of these flights.If I am at a full on contest, I would
say bring on the scrutiny, I do my best to comply with the FARs and I
have nothing to hide.But, if I am posting for a casual contest like the
OLC, where it is just for fun and education, I would say who needs this
level of scrutiny?Apparently someone does, because it keeps coming up.(
Please dont anybody post an answer to this, it is strictly retorical.)

You are making this far more difficult than it is. You really need to
skip this thread, do some flying, post your flights on the OLC, and sit
back and enjoy looking at the flights the other pilots are doing and are
happily posing every day.

You got that straight Eric! I am sorry I ever started this thread.I
want to thank you Wayne, Tom and everyone else (Pro and con) for your
insights.


You've gotten plenty of insight from real world participants who have
posted for years will no calls to remove their flights, but you appear
to ignore it in favor of a few pilots unhappy with posting limitations
on flights that show "substantial" variations from the FARS. Since you
plan to fly well within the FARs, you should know by now that YOU will
have no problems. So, why do you continue to worry about this?

Her again Eric, thanks for your opinions.I didnt mean to keep this
thread alive like this, it just sorta happened.I will probably try a
post or two on the OLC next season.

Paul never called your post "useless". At least, I couldn't find it,
even with a Google Groups search, but if you'll point out the post, I'll
be happy to read it. And, he did not suggest Yuily shouldn't post here,
only that he didn't want to read his posts.

What Paul did was call this thread useless.Since I started this thread,
I figured he was refering to me.I dont know the guy personally and I
didnt take issue with any of his ideas or opinoins, I took issue when
he sugested what was "useful" to post.

I hope he hasn't considered it when it comes to posting here, as I think
we'd lose some very useful comments. I'm appalled that you consider
Paul's stand one issue is a suitable reason to buy somewhere else, and
attempt to silence him with an economic threat.

Here again, Eric my comments were harsh, and made in a moment of haste
and they have been withdrawn.


If Paul's only interest in the sport was to suck as much money off the
participants, he'd just be posting happy talk about all the great stuff
he has to sell you. Paul is committed to this sport because he thinks
it's a great one, and he works hard at making it better. He does this in
a variety of ways, from very helpful comparison tables on his website,
to running glider software classes at the conventions, and now the
Contest Manager for the 2007 18M/Open Nationals.

For the record, I also thinks Paul's website is a valuble
asset.Although I am not a customer of his (yet), I have refered several
people to his bisiness over the years.
KM

Hi,

I don't think I was getting personal.

I don't recall ever calling your post useless. If I did I shouldn't have
and I'm sorry.

I'm just very frustrated with this entire series of threads. Can't I state
my opinions without it being taken personally?

I find the note below even more frustrating. I'm trying to support OLC
pilots and promote cross-country soaring with my comments here. I work very
hard to make my web site a valuable resource for glider pilots. I'm trying
to earn a living serving glider pilots.

Should I not make a comment about a sensitive topic because some people will
disagree with me and not buy from me? I hope not.

Paul Remde

"KM" wrote in message
ups.com...
Paul Remde wrote:
Hi Yuliy,

Congratulations on taking the fun out of the OLC. Congratulations on
making
some very helpful volunteers very frustrated. Congratulations on
discouraging cross country flight.

Paul, let me tell you what is taking the "fun" out of OLC.It was the
post from Doug on another part of this thread that explained how we can
take the sun angle down to 90 point some odd thousand of a degree so he
can measure sunset to the second.Somehow you and Doug have taken the
SSA mandate to remove flights that make us look bad down to the second?
Is this "fun" for you?How about we post a history of the 500 millbar
charts so we can correct everyones pressure altitude readout down to
the inch?When I started this thread I was hoping to get some insight
from real world OLC participants after all the flaming I read on the
"sunset " thread.Now I am begining to see where all the contention is
originating.I kind of doubt the SSA OLC board had this in mind when
they ask you to remove posts from
pilots who have busted a reg.

I would not be in the least bit sorry if I never read any more postings
from
you

Do you have to get personal?Yuliy's post was kinda funny (Made me
laugh).You called my post useless and now you suggest who shouldnt post
here.As a business owner, you might want to consider how you are coming
off.I spoke with you a few weeks ago about a 302 upgrade that I am
planning this winter.Has it occured that you are not the only Cambridge
dealer around?

Paul Remde

Paul Remde wrote:
I'm just very frustrated with this entire series of threads. Can't I state
my opinions without it being taken personally?

But of course you can.I may have interpeted your comments as
condisending and if they werent, my apologies.I also didnt understand
your answer to Graeme C.I think most of us, whether or not anyone
agrees, understood what he was trying to say.
Now at the risk of belligering the issue of the SSA-OLC, I think it is
unfortunate that the SSA has to address the FAR issues on the OLC.Its a
dirty job but someones got to do it, and I guess you and Doug and
whoever else is on the OLC board are catching all the static on this
and it has got to be a bit discouraging at times.The SSA-OLC could
probably help you a bit by updating their policy on this.

Should I not make a comment about a sensitive topic because some people will
disagree with me and not buy from me? I hope not.

Go ahead and provide all the commentary you want to.I may have taken
some of your comments as passing judgment and this is what led to my
comments.I may have jumped to conclusions.My apologies.I would like to
ad that I find your website (and Tim Mara's) a valuble asset to the
soaring community.
KM

Paul Remde

KM wrote:
Paul Remde wrote:
Hi Yuliy,

Congratulations on taking the fun out of the OLC. Congratulations on making
some very helpful volunteers very frustrated. Congratulations on
discouraging cross country flight.

Paul, let me tell you what is taking the "fun" out of OLC.It was the
post from Doug on another part of this thread that explained how we can
take the sun angle down to 90 point some odd thousand of a degree so he
can measure sunset to the second.Somehow you and Doug have taken the
SSA mandate to remove flights that make us look bad down to the second?

You have taken this out of context. Some posters on this board were
trying to say that Sunset was a fuzzy concept. The 90.83333 degree
zenith angle is the standard definition of sunset that is universally
accepted. The decimal is just shorthand for 90 degrees 50 minutes.

Sunset time is only calculated to the nearest minute, because the
seconds are considered meaningless precision. The exact time is
available to the pilot pre-flight, for a day, or a table for a whole
year, so there is no need for a fudge factor.

Doug Haluza wrote:
Sunset time is only calculated to the nearest minute, because the
seconds are considered meaningless precision. The exact time is
available to the pilot pre-flight, for a day, or a table for a whole
year, so there is no need for a fudge factor.

Here is the link to the USNO page for determining sunset:

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneDay.html#forma

Sunset is also available in-flight from sources already used by the most
cross-country pilots, such as flight software like SeeYou Mobile, and
Garmin hand-held GPS units. I believe a radio call to a flight service
station can also get you the sunset time, but I haven't tried it.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Paul,

I refuse to take offense at your post .

I am glad that you feel as strongly about the OLC as I do. I too am very
sorry (or even "sick" as you've put it) to see fun being taken out of OLC.
So, you see, we are fundamentally in agreement: we both care about the OLC
and miss the good old days when life was good for all.

The only substantial difference of opinions between us is, of course, who's
fault it is. For the sake of simplification (and at the risk of
oversimplification), let's say that you are blaming me, and I am blaming you
for taking fun out of OLC. So let us be logical for a minute at look at it
calmly:

1. How could I alone (or "a tiny fraction of the pilots" as it's been put
before) substantially affect the quality of the experience for the rest of
the OLC citizens? In comparison, you as a member of the SSA-OLC controlling
body, have much more influence than I do.

2. My presence on the OLC-US before the SSA-OLC era somehow did not "take
fun out of it". I used to enjoy OLC as much as you or the next guy did. It
suddenly changed when the SSA came into the picture.

So with those two facts in mind ((1) you have much more influence than I do,
and (2) it was still fun even with me on it before you came as part of SSA),
please come again: why do you blame me for the recent changes? A little bit
of shooting the messenger, perhaps?

There is, of course, the third possibility -- that it is neither my nor your
fault, but instead just a problem of growth and popularity. As OLC gets
exposed to more and more pilots (or is it the other way around?), there is a
growing number of vigilant citizens there who, for competitive, personal,
ideological or who-knows-what-other reasons, find it appropriate to
scrutinize other peoples' traces and report them.

Having said this, I am going to turn around and (in line with the more usual
mode of interaction in these threads) throw all dogs back at you. It was
your job that you willingly took upon yourself to handle all the growth and
popularity problems of the OLC-US -- and so far it's been my opinion that
you were mishandling them badly by encouraging the above mentioned behavior.

Please replace all occurrences of "you" with "SSA-OLC committee" in the
above as my assurance that none of this is meant to be personal.

Now, the fact that you recognize the meaning of the open forum -- and
actually like it -- puts you way ahead of some of your colleagues from
SSA-OLC committee.

Thank you.
--
Yuliy


"Paul Remde" wrote in message
news:ZNPSg.75569$aJ.40945@attbi_s21...
Hi Yuliy,

Congratulations on taking the fun out of the OLC. Congratulations on
making some very helpful volunteers very frustrated. Congratulations on
discouraging cross country flight.

I for one am a big fan of the OLC and I love to promote cross-country
flight.

I would not be in the least bit sorry if I never read any more postings
from you, but it is an open forum and I like that about it.

Paul Remde

"Yuliy Gerchikov" wrote
in message ...
KM,

Good points and observations,

"KM" wrote in message
ups.com...

I am new to the R.A.S

I too am new to the RAS (first post in 2001) and, according to some of
the loudest proponents of SSA-OLC, should not be allowed to state my
opinions here. But I'll venture some anyway ...before SSA takes over
R.A.S and turns it into SSA-RAS with its own policies and politics.

we have a active Yahoo group
where pilots post flights during the season.

Oh Horrors! You mean, you can post your flights, and no one will be
scrutinizing them for FAR violations? No one will be "guarding" the
community from the "bad apples"? No one will imply, without bothering
themselves with facts, that some pilots "consistently fly outside the
rules"? No one will tell you what you can or can't post there? No one
will tell you which flights you can or can't look at and learn from?
Wow... what a reckless concept. We haven't seen anything so disturbingly
lax here on OLC since the sanitation of traces started under SSA rule.
Certainly your Yahoo group is an unfortunate oversight on the SSA's part.
Good thing you have mentioned it here, so it can be looked at and fixed
soon. What is the URL?

This is not a contest, just
a way to report on the local happenings.

Aha! That must be it. Obviously, the reason SSA-OLC has to be so
different is the "C" in its name.

judging by the gist of
most of the comments on the "Sunset" thread the SSA OLC is not for
educational purposes, but much more of a hard core contest.

Here is the paradox. For educational purposes is, indeed, how most people
use OLC -- but those who own it now in the US insist on running it as a
hard core contest.

How did the SSA get a
monopoly on the OLC in the US,

Beats me!

and why did they change its intent?

Oh, this one is simple. Because they care about us -- what we say, what
we see, how we look to the feds. It's the Serve and Protect thing, you
see.

Another thing I found during my research on the SSA website was a memo
regarding FARs.It started out with "The SSA is not out to interpret or
enforce FARs"

Interesting finding -- especially considering how easily some SSA
officials pronounce certain pilots and flights to be "in violation of
FARs".

Now let me state that I fly for a living, and I
have every motivation BOTH from a monitary standpoint and a safety
standpoint to follow the regs, but lets say my flight recorder does
something stupid and now I have the same outfit that I pay dues to
HELPING the FAA come after me?Bizarre

If you fly for a living, then you certainly, definitely, absolutely,
positively NEVER EVER want to post any flights that have ANY chance or
breaking ANY rules. Did you get it? Not even the slightest possibility of
violation. The rest of the flights you can post -- just make absolutely
sure that even with the ever-increasing level of scrutiny no one will
ever find (or suggest) and "report" any violations in them.

For example, you definitely don't want to post any ridge flights, because
most of them *provably* violate FAR 91.119(c) -- even though this
violation is not (yet?) in the SSA's "no-no list" and is inexplicably
"OK" for SSA-OLC. You also don't want to post any flights that look like
running the cloud streets (easily recognizable by high-speed flat "tops"
and little or no thermalling for extended periods of time), because
somebody may report you, alleging cloud clearance violations. For the
same reason do not post any wave flights on days when medium to high RH
was observed at your flight altitudes.

This list, of course, can go on and on, depending on how picky,
knowledgeable and motivated our volunteer "inspectors" are. Everything
else you can post ...well, *somewhat* confidently. If you feel lucky.

if a pilot were to post an ocasional short flight,
say 2 to 3 hundred miles about once a week, is he gonna get laughed at?

That's a new definition of "short" to me! In fact, posting "2 to 3
hundred miles about once a week" will put you high enough on the score
sheet to attract a lot of attention -- and scrutiny -- to your flights.
So keep in mind what you might not want to post.

is there a way to bypass the SSA-OLC (and forgo all the
politics and flaming), and just post to the OLC in Germany?

One would wish... Alas, there is no such way. The SSA, as you correctly
pointed above, has a monopoly on OLC in this country. Every flight flown
entirely within US borders must be submitted to SSA-OLC -- or not at all.

K. Urban
--
Yuliy