Lessons learned from the Oregon tragedy

karl gruber wrote:

But how did he end up in the river?

Looking for a drink?


For sure, I'd have walked down the road.

Until you became delirious from hypothermia... At that point, you don't
know what you might do.


Matt

It is all moot for Kim. People who know what and how to
hike out, who know where they are (maybe with a compass and
topo map, maybe with a GPS), who have the equipment and
supplies are not as likely to get themselves and their
family in such dire straits.


"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
|
| Well, we, as trained pilots, should have studied
survival
| and always have some minimum supplies, so walking out
might
| be an option, but sitting it out with the supplies when
a
| flight plan has been filed and S&R was known to be
coming is
| the best option.
| But was anybody looking that they knew about, were they
| close to the route they should have been on? His body
| warmth in the car, a group huddle is warmer than just
the
| mother and two small children.
|
| The miracle is that they all did not die. The mother
breast
| fed her children, but that would materially shorten her
life
| due to the use of water and calories.
|
| It was foolish to not have some goose down clothing and
| blankets in stuff sacks, they take very little room and
are
| very warm. Some survival foods, jerky, canned milk,
water,
| maybe some chocolate bars, nuts, fruit, even a small
cooler
| with food for the trip would have made a difference.
| Calling the AAA to get a road report and maps. Every
state
| has a road department or police that will tell you about
| road closings and weather. The things that they could
have
| done before hand is a long list, any one or two might
have
| made the difference.
|
| A simple call to a friend someplace, with a request that
| they call out the police if you don't call them by 10 PM
| tonight would get S&R looking. Haven't checked, but
auto
| clubs and car rental agencies could offer "drive plans"
as a
| service.
|
| Yes, all are things that should have been done. However,
I still am not
| convinced that the blanket advice to stay with the
vehicle is correct.
| With proper clothing (not tennis shoes), I can easily
walk 10 miles a
| day in pretty rough terrain (I do it hunting most every
year) and I can
| walk 50 miles a day on roads or level terrain. If I was
less than 50
| miles from civilization, I think I have a good chance of
getting help
| faster than waiting for rescue, especially in a case like
this where
| nobody knows where I am.
|
| I agree that if it is likely that someone knows where you
are and that
| you are overdue, then staying with the vehicle makes a lot
of sense.
| The trouble with general advice is that it often is
useless
| specifically. :-)
|
|
| Matt

A fall down a hill into the river?



"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
| karl gruber wrote:
|
| But how did he end up in the river?
|
| Looking for a drink?
|
|
| For sure, I'd have walked down the road.
|
| Until you became delirious from hypothermia... At that
point, you don't
| know what you might do.
|
|
| Matt

On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 20:56:38 -0600, in ,
Jim Macklin wrote:
His body warmth in the car, a group huddle is warmer than just the
mother and two small children.

Maybe I'm a pesimist, but I suspect he got tired of hearing his wife
complain things like, "Now this is a fine mess you've gotten us into" and
"I told you to ask directions, by *noooo*, you wouldn't listen Mr.
KnowItAll" and decided he would rather face the cold and possibly die than
listen to her anymore...

On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 19:41:10 -0800, in ,
karl gruber wrote:
But how did he end up in the river?

Maybe he figured that following the water would be the smoothest
course... At the very least, it guarantees that you are decreasing in
altitude... Unless the waterway goes underground, eventually he would end
up on the coast at the very worst... Maybe he figured that he would find
one of the camps along the river where the kayakers put in at...

For sure, I'd have walked down the road.

The problem was, he was definitely lost... At that point, he probably
wasn't sure which way would get him out of there... Yeah, maybe going back
the way he came would have helped for a bit, but soon he would be at yet
another logging road intersection and he might not know where to go from
there... He screwed up... Darwin didn't quite win since he at least had a
chance to pass on his genes...

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Jim Macklin wrote:

Well, we, as trained pilots, should have studied survival and always have
some minimum supplies, so walking out might be an option, but sitting it
out with the supplies when a flight plan has been filed and S&R was known
to be coming is the best option.
But was anybody looking that they knew about, were they close to the
route they should have been on? His body warmth in the car, a group
huddle is warmer than just the mother and two small children.

The miracle is that they all did not die. The mother breast fed her
children, but that would materially shorten her life due to the use of
water and calories.

It was foolish to not have some goose down clothing and blankets in stuff
sacks, they take very little room and are very warm. Some survival
foods, jerky, canned milk, water, maybe some chocolate bars, nuts, fruit,
even a small cooler with food for the trip would have made a difference.
Calling the AAA to get a road report and maps. Every state has a road
department or police that will tell you about road closings and weather.
The things that they could have done before hand is a long list, any one
or two might have made the difference.

A simple call to a friend someplace, with a request that they call out
the police if you don't call them by 10 PM tonight would get S&R looking.
Haven't checked, but auto clubs and car rental agencies could offer
"drive plans" as a service.

Yes, all are things that should have been done. However, I still am not
convinced that the blanket advice to stay with the vehicle is correct.
With proper clothing (not tennis shoes), I can easily walk 10 miles a day
in pretty rough terrain (I do it hunting most every year) and I can walk
50 miles a day on roads or level terrain. If I was less than 50 miles
from civilization, I think I have a good chance of getting help faster
than waiting for rescue, especially in a case like this where nobody knows
where I am.

I agree that if it is likely that someone knows where you are and that you
are overdue, then staying with the vehicle makes a lot of sense. The
trouble with general advice is that it often is useless specifically. :-)


Matt

I agree that it may be worth trying to walk out, but only IF you know where
you are and have a good idea of where you need to go. In this case, it
sounds like he just started walking in hopes of finding someone or
something. That's a bad plan unless the weather is good and/or you're in an
area where you are likely to find help quickly.

KB

Kyle Boatright wrote:
"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Jim Macklin wrote:


Well, we, as trained pilots, should have studied survival and always have
some minimum supplies, so walking out might be an option, but sitting it
out with the supplies when a flight plan has been filed and S&R was known
to be coming is the best option.
But was anybody looking that they knew about, were they close to the
route they should have been on? His body warmth in the car, a group
huddle is warmer than just the mother and two small children.

The miracle is that they all did not die. The mother breast fed her
children, but that would materially shorten her life due to the use of
water and calories.

It was foolish to not have some goose down clothing and blankets in stuff
sacks, they take very little room and are very warm. Some survival
foods, jerky, canned milk, water, maybe some chocolate bars, nuts, fruit,
even a small cooler with food for the trip would have made a difference.
Calling the AAA to get a road report and maps. Every state has a road
department or police that will tell you about road closings and weather.
The things that they could have done before hand is a long list, any one
or two might have made the difference.

A simple call to a friend someplace, with a request that they call out
the police if you don't call them by 10 PM tonight would get S&R looking.
Haven't checked, but auto clubs and car rental agencies could offer
"drive plans" as a service.

Yes, all are things that should have been done. However, I still am not
convinced that the blanket advice to stay with the vehicle is correct.
With proper clothing (not tennis shoes), I can easily walk 10 miles a day
in pretty rough terrain (I do it hunting most every year) and I can walk
50 miles a day on roads or level terrain. If I was less than 50 miles
from civilization, I think I have a good chance of getting help faster
than waiting for rescue, especially in a case like this where nobody knows
where I am.

I agree that if it is likely that someone knows where you are and that you
are overdue, then staying with the vehicle makes a lot of sense. The
trouble with general advice is that it often is useless specifically. :-)


Matt


I agree that it may be worth trying to walk out, but only IF you know where
you are and have a good idea of where you need to go. In this case, it
sounds like he just started walking in hopes of finding someone or
something. That's a bad plan unless the weather is good and/or you're in an
area where you are likely to find help quickly.

Yes, and depends on what kind of shape you are in, etc. I hunt enough
to know what I can do in a variety of weather and terrain. Folks who
leave the city only on vacation are less likely to know their
capabilities and limitations.

Matt

"john smith" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Newps wrote:

Tennis shoes, no hat or gloves. There could have been no other outcome.

Sure there could have!
He walked the wrong way.
One mile in the opposite direction was a stocked fishing lodge,
according to the reports I have been reading.
It sounds as though he didn't scout the area in the week he stayed with
the car. (Hindsight, I know.)

I'm not an outdoorsman, and never have been; but I've been reading the
additions to this thread each morning, with a sour expression on my kisser,
and this is one of the first posts that has made a lot of sense--scout the
area while you still can.

I don't watch scheduled TV, so last evening I finally did a quick web search
to learn a little more about this story. It appeared that they did have
some supplies, and that they did use them at least as well as could be
reasonably expected from the written advice that is routinely given. I
might add that a lot of the advice regarding staying with the "wreckage"
presumes that there is some reason that the wreckage might be found, and
that there may be injuries. Also, a lot of the advice was written before
most airplanes were painted white!

With respect to the clothing issues, it is true that they were
underequipped. However, having shopped for cold weather gear in an area
that doesn't receive cold weather, I am inclined to judge less harshly.
Those boots that were supposed to be the cat's pajamas can be annoying,
since you can't walk around outside as far as you planned, and the rest of
the outerwear that you used incorrectly may cause you to "catch your death";
but a bottle of wine and a long soak in the hot tub will probably cure all
that ails you. OTOH, in the wilderness, a lot of incorrectly recommended
clothing (or simply inexperience) is a severe handicap!

Peter

That's probably the best explaination I have yet heard..
Cooped up in a car with a wife and two small kids for a week!
That's enough to drive any man nuts. ;-))
(nice touch of comic relief)

Grumman-581 wrote:

On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 20:56:38 -0600, in ,
Jim Macklin wrote:


His body warmth in the car, a group huddle is warmer than just the
mother and two small children.



Maybe I'm a pesimist, but I suspect he got tired of hearing his wife
complain things like, "Now this is a fine mess you've gotten us into" and
"I told you to ask directions, by *noooo*, you wouldn't listen Mr.
KnowItAll" and decided he would rather face the cold and possibly die than
listen to her anymore...

It seems that I forgot to read my post one last time after editing, with the
result that I left out the main point--my own unsuccessfull outfitting was
for a ski trip some years ago. (The poor choices and usage are only
annoying at a ski resort, but dissastrous in the wilderness.) The parapragh
sould have read:

----------

With respect to the clothing issues, it is true that they were
underequipped. However, having shopped for cold weather gear in an area
that doesn't receive cold weather, I am inclined to judge less harshly.
Those boots that were supposed to be the cat's pajamas can be annoying at a
ski resort, since you can't walk around outside as far as you planned, and
the rest of the outerwear that you used incorrectly may cause you to "catch
your death"; but a bottle of wine and a long soak in the hot tub will
probably cure all that ails you. OTOH, in the wilderness, a lot of
incorrectly recommended clothing (or simply inexperience) is a severe
handicap!

----------

I'm sorry about the way my post looked with the omission.

Peter