Honor to those who came forward

Cecil Turner wrote in message ...
Kevin Brooks wrote:

Cecil Turner wrote in message ...
Kevin Brooks wrote:
It's "for he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother" . .
. not "he who feeds the horses but stays behind."

So you join Art in scorning the service of all of those who have
faithfully served in other roles, or theaters? I would have thought
better of you, Cecil.

Mr Brooks, I may be overly sensitive, but as a (retired) military officer I expect a
certain amount of civility and courtesy, especially from fellow servicemen. Since you
refuse to discuss issues without gratuitous personal comments, I decline to correspond
with you further.

I would expect more than that "he who feeds the horses" bit from a
good officer, retired or otherwise.

Well, let's talk about your expectations for a moment. Most references on the subject
claim it's a very personal phenomenon (and even more so for small groups). For example:
"The book highlights the importance of peer pressure in reinforcing courage. For the
ship?s company and a bomber crew, the shared risk is perhaps even more personal than it
is for a company of infantry." (Air Marshal Sir Timothy Garden, reviewing _The Mystery
of Courage_ By William Ian Miller)

And various communities do not extend the same risk appreciation to others. Examples
include sailors deriding merchant mariners, or infantrymen and airmen (even though the
risks to the latter are statistically greater in most conflicts). Further, I find it
hard to believe even someone who hasn't been there hasn't noticed these things, and
believe you're being intentionally obtuse.

Not obtuse, I just find it hard to believe that a professional would
buy into the "those that feed the horses" bit as a manner of
denigrating others' honorable service (and that is what this was
about--Art having a decided tendency to ridicule the efforts of any
who did not see direct combat, regardless of their duty, orders, or
even other critical contribution, etc.). How far would *your* units
have gotten without maintainers, mess personnel, the logistics chain
that kept you in beans/bullets, the medical types who handled your
wounded from the battlefield all the way back to CONUS, etc.? And you
still can scoff at those "who feed the horses"? Even when some of
"them" are the ones who have been shown to be most at risk in terms of
catastrophic loss during both ODS and OIF?


While we're on the personal comment stuff . . . IME the individual has considerable
control over his orders in today's volunteer military. And lately, those who wish to be
in combat don't have much trouble doing so. And there are those who are in each
conflict . . . and those who manage to miss them all. Among those who regularly don't
participate, they seem to just miss being assigned to a unit that goes. Often there are
sets of orders to second echelon commands just after the war ends, or similar excuses.

Back up the bus, Gus. I commanded a company during the time of ODS,
and yet I still volunteered to go overseas with my parent BN HQ (a
composite unit) when they got their orders--I was told thanks, but
your unit is on the deployment list as well (a fact born out by the
fact that we all of a sudden received things like that new M916 with
lowboy trailer that had been on backorder stsus for a couple of
*years*, with "Operation Desert Storm" listed as a justification for
fill, not to mention the near-daily updates I received by phone from
our RG personnel as to our deployment status). But in the end there
was less need for fixed bridge companies than originally projected. If
you are insinuating any of this adds up to "excuses", then you can
kiss me where the sun don't shine. And that IS intended to be quite
personal, so you can take it that way.

How much of a buildup would there have had to be before your unit would have been sent
to ODS?

We were bumped from phase to phase of the TPFDL (which was apprently
being generated on the fly, according to our RG rep, who said they
were actually to the point of moving units on post-it notes around on
a wall). ISTR we were in something like phase 7B or something like
that when the ground war kicked into gear and all things quickly
stopped in terms of shipping more combat power overseas. Uhmmm...you
do remember what a TPFDL is, right?

And if you're still in, you had the last couple of opportunities as
well.

Not anymore. But I did my share of years in service, both active and
reserve. All as a volunteer. I don't feel any burning need to drop my
current life in order to try to go back and prove anything to anyone;
I'll leave that kind of behavior to guys like you and Art, the folks
who have some strange need to reinforce their tender egos by tearing
down the contributions of the millions of others who did their duty
because you feel that is the route to making your own contributions
more worthwhile.


Perhaps in a training or similar non-deploying billet now? It all just seems a bit . .
. convenient. (And might help to explain your apparent sensitivity on the subject.)

Hey, this ad-hominem game is fun! Let's play another round, shall we?

Sure. Based upon what you have indicated so far, did *all* of your
fellow servicemembers think you were a complete asshole who had little
regard for anyone's service other than his own, or did you keep your
mouth shut in this vein at the time? Ever tell a "horse feeder" he was
lacking in the old duty and service area, and have him tell you where
you could shove that feed? No, I imagine you didn't...you probably
would not have been willing to make such a facile statement to
anyone's face. Do you feel that the Marines who were occupied by
duties in the FSSG were "less of a man" because of their "REMF"
duties? How about those water purification troops from the USAR who
got pasted by that Scud during ODS--were they not up to your
standards? Or the folks killed at the center of all REMF-dom, the
Pentagon? Can you tell us how they were lacking?

Brooks


rgds,
KTF

(ArtKramr) wrote in message ...
Subject: Honor to those who came forward
From: (Kevin Brooks)
Date: 7/4/03 1:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote in message
...
On this 4th of July let us honor all who fought. But let us especialy
never
forget the special few who came forward volunteering and said, "Take me.
I'll
go" It was these men who formed American elite units; Marines, Airborne,
Seals, Submarine Service, Air Corps and Air Forces. We owe them all a
special
thanks.

Arthur Kramer

Another self-serving platitude from Art; who'd have thunk it? If I
were to tell my Dad (a volunteer for the USAAF during WWII with
missions over japan in B-29's under his belt) or my late brother (who
volunteered for service during the Vietnam conflict and flew UH-1's as
a Dustoff pilot) that they were "elite", I'd be laughed out of the
house. Neither ever figured himself to be a bit better than any of the
other millions of servicemen who performed their service, no matter
how mundane, during those conflicts. Since when has service in the
USAAF, or USAF for that matter, made someone "elite" amongst their
other service peers?

Brooks


Your dad? Your brother? What does that have to do with you? Let's hear what
you did. It'll be the shortest post in this NG Why the hell do all you
wannabees always talk about what others did, never what you did.?

.
Arthur Kramer

Because you keep denying that the service of those of us who happened
to be born after WWII and found our service periods did not include
some form of direct combat even occured. Chalk it up to a senior
moment or whatever, but FYI we have spent one heck of a lot longer in
periods of peace during the intervening years than we did at war. And
I was ten years old when my brother went to Vietnam--should I have
lied about my age and joined up? But don't worry, you don't have to
say anything about my Cold War service--or that which occured after
that period. On behalf of the millions who served alongside me, I'll
tell you "you're welcome" anyway.

Brooks

(ArtKramr) wrote:

Because he is the officer in charge. It is his decision to make and he made it.
He need onty be called to explain by a superior officer in the chain of
command. Everyone else is outside the loop.

Arthur Kramer

Oh, I see now..."Never explain" (except to a higher rank then?..)

Seems to take the 'snap' out of the phrase though doesn't it?.
Makes me wonder why anyone would ever use it somehow.
--

-Gord.

Kevin Brooks wrote:

Hey, this ad-hominem game is fun! Let's play another round, shall we?

Sure. Based upon what you have indicated so far, did *all* of your
fellow servicemembers think you were a complete asshole snip

I'm sure many did. Including almost all who persisted in personal insults after being
asked to stop.

good day,
KTF

"Cecil Turner" wrote in message
...
Kevin Brooks wrote:

Hey, this ad-hominem game is fun! Let's play another round, shall we?

Sure. Based upon what you have indicated so far, did *all* of your
fellow servicemembers think you were a complete asshole snip

I'm sure many did. Including almost all who persisted in personal insults
after being
asked to stop.

good day,
KTF

If you think this is bad, scoot over to alt.military.retired or soc.veterans and
find out what the real world of flame and invective is like. (^-^)))

George Z.

Gooneybird wrote:

If you think this is bad, scoot over to alt.military.retired or soc.veterans and
find out what the real world of flame and invective is like. (^-^)))

Quite. I find soc.veterans, alt.military and alt.military.retired to
be intellectually vacant lots (filled with crabgrass and very
occasional wild flowers) alongside the information superhighway.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

"Cecil Turner" wrote in message
...
Gooneybird wrote:

If you think this is bad, scoot over to alt.military.retired or soc.veterans
and
find out what the real world of flame and invective is like. (^-^)))

George Z.

After skimming a few threads, I suppose you're right. (But at least they had
more
entertaining sexual references.)

Hell, they're all over the hill and have trouble getting a bag of groceries up a
flight of stairs, much less getting anything else up. Any comments you pick up
over there about sex are an example of how one relives life after he gets to be
a certain age. If you can't do it any more, at least you can think about it and
brag to anybody who'll listen about how good you are (or were). If they're
smart, they won't believe you. (^-^)))

Everybody there accuses everybody else about lying about everything, including
the day of the week. And everything includes sex.

Back to flying things, where modesty sometimes even rears its ugly head.

George Z.

"Andrew Chaplin" wrote in message
...
Gooneybird wrote:

If you think this is bad, scoot over to alt.military.retired or soc.veterans
and
find out what the real world of flame and invective is like. (^-^)))

Quite. I find soc.veterans, alt.military and alt.military.retired to
be intellectually vacant lots (filled with crabgrass and very
occasional wild flowers) alongside the information superhighway.

Beautiful! That kind of poetic prose shouldn't be wasted on the latrine diggers
of the world.

George Z.

PS - Is poetic prose an oxymoron? Even if it is, you know what I mean.

ArtKramr wrote:

Subject: Honor to those who came forward
From: Richard Lamb
Date: 7/6/03 9:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


Never explain youself.
Your friends don't need it
and your enemies won't believe it.

Exactly. (ROFL)

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Liked that one, did you?

But you never replied to my other post in this thread.

The one about over 200 missions behind enemy lines in Viet Nam?

Shot down twice.

Awarded the DFC (as an enlisted puke!)

Art, your attitdue, or at least your presentation of it is very
self serving...

Richard

In message , Gooneybird
writes

"Andrew Chaplin" wrote in message
...
Gooneybird wrote:

If you think this is bad, scoot over to alt.military.retired or
soc.veterans
and
find out what the real world of flame and invective is like. (^-^)))

Quite. I find soc.veterans, alt.military and alt.military.retired to
be intellectually vacant lots (filled with crabgrass and very
occasional wild flowers) alongside the information superhighway.

Beautiful! That kind of poetic prose shouldn't be wasted on the
latrine diggers
of the world.

Hey! I dug latrines once. And filled them in afterwards.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell