Impact of Eurofighters in the Middle East

-----Original Message-----
From:
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military,soc.culture.israel
Date: 14. September 2003. 16:43
Subject: Impact of Eurofighters in the Middle East


Iran's F14's have been grounded for years and have not flown at all due to
lack of spares etc.

Ever heard of "Iran-Contra" and Mr. "I cannot recall, your honor" Oliver
North (8-) ?

Nele

NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA

wrote in message .. .
Iran's F14's have been grounded for years and have not flown at all due to
lack of spares etc.

Are you sure of that? ISTR that they still manage to keep a few flying
these days, according to reports in some of the trade magazines. One
US source indicates about 25 of them may remain operational
(www.afa.org/magazine/Dec2002/1202iran.asp).

Also see:


www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0077.shtml

www.rferl.org/iran-report/1999/09/36-130999.html

Your claim sounds more hopeful than accurate...and why the top
posting?

Brooks


--
"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
R.J. Goldman

http://www.usidfvets.com
"phil hunt" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 16:38:25 +0100, Big Dave
wrote:
Aaaah but isn't the AIM 54 being retired as the only plane that can carry
it
is the F14 which is also nearing it max flying hours so will also be
retired?

Aparently, Iran (the only F-14 operator apart from the USA) is
building its own copy of the AIM 54.

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"phil hunt" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 10:43:50 -0400,
wrote:
Iran's F14's have been grounded for years and have not flown at all due
to
lack of spares etc.

Don you have a cite for that? And for the general servicability of
aircraft in the Iranian Air Force? The impression I had was that
Iran was having some success in making its own spare parts and/or
buying new components, e.g from China.

On a more general note, why was there a fashion for swing-wing
aircraft in the 60s and 70s -- F-14, F-111, Tornado, MiG-23, etc --
and why did they go out of fashion?

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In article ,
"Paul J. Adam" wrote:

Equivalent value, the Raptor is outnumbered: it's better but not _that_
much better.

The Raptor *might be* outnumbered, if everyone in Europe follows through
with their complete purchasing plans.

And in some areas (radar cross-section, for example), it's in a
completely different class. Having a neatokeen Eurofighter won't help,
if the other side can see you from four times as far away as you can see
them. In a head to head fight, the Raptor will be killing Typhoons
while the Typhoons would still be trying to get a target lock.

The Typhoon's radar is also a problem. Since the Typhoon wasn't
designed to be a stealth fighter, the radar they picked isn't a
low-detection type (like the Raptor's). The Raptor will often be
*acquiring* Typhoons before the Typhoon even knows it's being looked at.

On current trends the RAF will get more Typhoons than the USAF will
Raptors...

Nope. The US plans on buying 339 Raptors (and with the changes over the
last two years, will probably have to buy more), while England only
currently plans to buy 232 Typhoons.

--


Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

Peter Kemp peter_n_kempathotmaildotcom wrote in message . ..
On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 02:47:23 +0100, (phil hunt)
wrote:

On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 15:44:56 -0400, Peter Kemp peter_n_kempathotmaildotcom wrote:
On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 13:19:35 -0600, Scott Ferrin
wrote:

On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 11:56:58 -0400, Peter Kemp
peter_n_kempathotmaildotcom wrote:

Python 4 is indeed supposed to be very good. Now look up ASRAAM, which
is a handy little performer itself.

Let's not forget the recently announced Python 5.

Indeed, although IIRC the 5 is basically a 4 with a staring array
(please correct me if my memory's going).

Yes. Python 5 is new guidance system, same everything else.

Ta for confirming that.

ASRAAM already has the
staring array.

Python 5 is said to have 100 degree off-boresight aquisition, and
lock on after launch which IIRC ASRAAM doesn't have.

ASRAAM does have LOAL, and it's off boresight is 90 degrees. How much
difference the extra 10 degrees would make is not something I could
estimate, but presumably with LOAL you could still "fire over the
shoulder" and have a chance of it still getting a kill (as you could
with the Python 4/5).

Peter Kemp


Python 5 is a _full sphere_ missile

http://www.rafael.co.il/web/rafnew/news/news-120603.htm

On 14 Sep 2003 12:57:14 -0700, (Quant) wrote:

Peter Kemp peter_n_kempathotmaildotcom wrote in message . ..
On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 02:47:23 +0100, (phil hunt)
wrote:
Python 5 is said to have 100 degree off-boresight aquisition, and
lock on after launch which IIRC ASRAAM doesn't have.

ASRAAM does have LOAL, and it's off boresight is 90 degrees. How much
difference the extra 10 degrees would make is not something I could
estimate, but presumably with LOAL you could still "fire over the
shoulder" and have a chance of it still getting a kill (as you could
with the Python 4/5).

Python 5 is a _full sphere_ missile

http://www.rafael.co.il/web/rafnew/news/news-120603.htm

Only due to the LOAL feature (which ASRAAM also has). The
off-boresight angle is *not* 180 degree before anyone gets confused.

Peter Kemp

[snip]

The info will probably come from early warning systems. Israel is
relying upon its own early warning systems while Saudi Arabia and
Egypt will have to rely upon inferior systems, unless the US will sell
its best technology to these Arab countries (and I doubt it will
happen).

Both Israel the Arab nations use US early warning systems, including
E-2s, and in the case of SA, E-3s (which the Israelis *don't* have.


What about IAI Phalcon 707, "The world's most advanced AEWC&C system"
according to Federation of American Scientists?

Peter Kemp

In message , Chad Irby
writes
In article ,
"Paul J. Adam" wrote:

Equivalent value, the Raptor is outnumbered: it's better but not _that_
much better.

The Raptor *might be* outnumbered, if everyone in Europe follows through
with their complete purchasing plans.

And in some areas (radar cross-section, for example), it's in a
completely different class.

Evidence for that, Mr Irby? It's a claim much advanced but never
substantiated.

Having a neatokeen Eurofighter won't help,
if the other side can see you from four times as far away as you can see
them.

Again, source for this claim?

In a head to head fight, the Raptor will be killing Typhoons
while the Typhoons would still be trying to get a target lock.

Once again, is this based on analyis or on a sales brochure?

The Typhoon's radar is also a problem. Since the Typhoon wasn't
designed to be a stealth fighter, the radar they picked isn't a
low-detection type (like the Raptor's). The Raptor will often be
*acquiring* Typhoons before the Typhoon even knows it's being looked at.

Radar is only one sensor. A good fighter uses much more than one radar.

On current trends the RAF will get more Typhoons than the USAF will
Raptors...

Nope. The US plans on buying 339 Raptors (and with the changes over the
last two years, will probably have to buy more), while England only
currently plans to buy 232 Typhoons.

The US was going to buy 750+ Raptors. Now it's down to 339 and still
falling. We've signed a contract, the US hasn't.

The F-22 is a really, really good aircraft but it's too damn expensive.
Sixty years ago the Me-262 outclassed almost anything in the sky - but
it was defeated by superior numbers of inferior planes.

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

On 14 Sep 2003 14:58:02 -0700, (baffet) wrote:

[snip]

The info will probably come from early warning systems. Israel is
relying upon its own early warning systems while Saudi Arabia and
Egypt will have to rely upon inferior systems, unless the US will sell
its best technology to these Arab countries (and I doubt it will
happen).

Both Israel the Arab nations use US early warning systems, including
E-2s, and in the case of SA, E-3s (which the Israelis *don't* have.


What about IAI Phalcon 707, "The world's most advanced AEWC&C system"
according to Federation of American Scientists?

Well, the FAS is a nice resource, but has many flaws, and AFAIK the
Israelis have not built any Phalcons for their own use, and are merely
trying to flog them around the world.

Peter Kemp

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 09:25:20 -0400, Peter Kemp peter_n_kempathotmaildotcom wrote:

Python 5 is said to have 100 degree off-boresight aquisition, and
lock on after launch which IIRC ASRAAM doesn't have.

ASRAAM does have LOAL, and it's off boresight is 90 degrees. How much
difference the extra 10 degrees would make is not something I could
estimate,

Not a lot, I would imagine. With 90 degrees, the pilot only has to
get which half of the sky the target is in.


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