French planes are crap

On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 07:36:44 -0000, "killfile" wrote:

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 04:04:47 -0000, "Matt" wrote:

Just the standard 'blah blah America superior to the rest of the world in
absolutely every respect blah blah" Al post.

The Rafale is a nice aircraft, and excellent value when you take it's
weapon
systems - MICA, SCALP-EG, etc - into account. The Republic of Korea's Air
Force wanted the Rafale with uprated engines, but since the US offered
the
F-15K with economic offsets that actually outweigh the price of the
contract
(i..e. they essentially payed the Koreans to take it), they went for that
instead. Suprise!

The F-15K is a very nice aircraft, but the base airframe is getting on in
years.

Matt

The Rafale has ZERO export sales, despite offsets equal to any offered
by the US. The F-35 has thousands. Do try to keep up.

Al Minyard

Nice to see you completely failed to do any research whatsoever before
opening your ass, I mean, mouth.

The Rafale deal offered to South Korea was essentially a licensed production
deal, with Dassault offering to transfer an entire Rafale production line to
Seoul. France would build the first few aircraft, and then provide a few
limited components once the line was established. In the end, it worked out
to around a $4bn offset.

The US/Boeing offer was a transferred-tech deal that directly shook out to
about $3.2bn once the US government gave Boeing a $250m subsidy to reduce
the overall price, but was closer to $6bn in linked defence and economic
loans. The bottom line from the US was "If you don't buy our fighter, we're
not going to give you these loans. Oh, and we're currently reviewing your
most-favoured-nation trade status. No pressure!"

No Rafales. It was, and is, inferior to the F-15

The F-35 has zero - nil - export sales. A number of foreign governments,
including the UK, are contributing financially to the development process as
partners... but no-one has actually bought the aircraft yet, including the
US. All the 'partner nations' get for their money is technological
information and, in the case of the UK, component production contracts.
After all, Bush might still cancel it to pay for his adventure in Iraq.

Do try to keep up!

Matt

There are 3000+ orders for the F-35. They have not been paid for,
because payment is due on delivery.

It will not be canceled, the war on terrorism is expensive, but the US
is quite capable of affording it without impacting other programs

The UK is planning on replacing its excellent, but old, Harrier
fleet with the F-35

Al Minyard

On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 07:47:14 -0000, "killfile" wrote:


"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
.. .
On 2 Nov 2003 19:13:22 -0800, (robert arndt) wrote:

Alan Minyard wrote in message
...
On 2 Nov 2003 02:39:53 -0800, (robert arndt) wrote:

(Tom R. Rastell) wrote in message
.com...
because the French are frogs and frogs can´t fly!


Oh really? Then please explain why Americans were flying French a/c in
WW1. Ever heard of the Lafayette Escadrille? Nieuport or Spad ring any
bells? Moron.

Rob

Let's see, 85 years ago some US pilots flew French aircraft, so current
French
aircraft must be wonderful. Really strange logic at work there.

Current French aircraft, while not exactly "crap", are not state of the
art and
are clearly inferior to their US counterparts.

Al Minyard

Funny how the French had the Dewoitine D.520 and M.S.406 during the
first year of the war and how good they were. The M.S.406 while
inferior to the Me-109E still racked up 175 kills from 1939-40. The
D.520 OTOH was the best French fighter up until the surrender and was
certainly equal to the Spitfire and Me-109 of the time.
After WW2, the French sold many of their aircraft to the Israelis who
racked up more kills and got a lot of mileage out of the aircraft
against the Arabs: Ouragan, Mystere, Super Mystere, Vautour, and
Mirage.
Currently the French have the Mirage 2000 and Rafale, both very
capable aircraft.
You just don't like anything foreign Al.

Rob

Not when they are clearly inferior. The F-15, F-16, F-14. F-35 and F-22
are all clearly superior to anything ever produced in France. And
quoting unverified numbers from a war that France lost in record time
does little to bolster your case.

Look at the export sales of the Rafale compared to the export sales
of the F-35.

Al Minyard

The Republic of Korea Air Force seem to think that the Rafale is superior to
the F-15 and F-16, as well as the Su-35 and Eurofighter.

Oh, that must be why they bought the F-35 instead of the rafale.

The clearest thing is that nothing is superior to the *price* of the F-22
... I'll certainly bet the six Rafales or Eurofighters you could get the
price of one F-22 against that lone F-22 in combat.

The F-22 would kill all of them before they knew it was there.

Al Minyard

"Alan Minyard" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 07:47:14 -0000, "killfile"
wrote:


"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
.. .
On 2 Nov 2003 19:13:22 -0800, (robert arndt) wrote:

Alan Minyard wrote in message
...
On 2 Nov 2003 02:39:53 -0800, (robert arndt)
wrote:

(Tom R. Rastell) wrote in message
.com...
because the French are frogs and frogs can´t fly!


Oh really? Then please explain why Americans were flying French a/c
in
WW1. Ever heard of the Lafayette Escadrille? Nieuport or Spad ring
any
bells? Moron.

Rob

Let's see, 85 years ago some US pilots flew French aircraft, so
current
French
aircraft must be wonderful. Really strange logic at work there.

Current French aircraft, while not exactly "crap", are not state of
the
art and
are clearly inferior to their US counterparts.

Al Minyard

Funny how the French had the Dewoitine D.520 and M.S.406 during the
first year of the war and how good they were. The M.S.406 while
inferior to the Me-109E still racked up 175 kills from 1939-40. The
D.520 OTOH was the best French fighter up until the surrender and was
certainly equal to the Spitfire and Me-109 of the time.
After WW2, the French sold many of their aircraft to the Israelis who
racked up more kills and got a lot of mileage out of the aircraft
against the Arabs: Ouragan, Mystere, Super Mystere, Vautour, and
Mirage.
Currently the French have the Mirage 2000 and Rafale, both very
capable aircraft.
You just don't like anything foreign Al.

Rob

Not when they are clearly inferior. The F-15, F-16, F-14. F-35 and F-22
are all clearly superior to anything ever produced in France. And
quoting unverified numbers from a war that France lost in record time
does little to bolster your case.

Look at the export sales of the Rafale compared to the export sales
of the F-35.

Al Minyard

The Republic of Korea Air Force seem to think that the Rafale is superior
to
the F-15 and F-16, as well as the Su-35 and Eurofighter.

Oh, that must be why they bought the F-35 instead of the rafale.

The clearest thing is that nothing is superior to the *price* of the F-22
... I'll certainly bet the six Rafales or Eurofighters you could get the
price of one F-22 against that lone F-22 in combat.

The F-22 would kill all of them before they knew it was there.

bla bla bla

Al Minyard

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 07:36:44 -0000, "killfile"
wrote:

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 04:04:47 -0000, "Matt" wrote:

Just the standard 'blah blah America superior to the rest of the world
in
absolutely every respect blah blah" Al post.

The Rafale is a nice aircraft, and excellent value when you take it's
weapon
systems - MICA, SCALP-EG, etc - into account. The Republic of Korea's
Air
Force wanted the Rafale with uprated engines, but since the US offered
the
F-15K with economic offsets that actually outweigh the price of the
contract
(i..e. they essentially payed the Koreans to take it), they went for
that
instead. Suprise!

The F-15K is a very nice aircraft, but the base airframe is getting on
in
years.

Matt

The Rafale has ZERO export sales, despite offsets equal to any offered
by the US. The F-35 has thousands. Do try to keep up.

Al Minyard

Nice to see you completely failed to do any research whatsoever before
opening your ass, I mean, mouth.

The Rafale deal offered to South Korea was essentially a licensed
production
deal, with Dassault offering to transfer an entire Rafale production line
to
Seoul. France would build the first few aircraft, and then provide a few
limited components once the line was established. In the end, it worked
out
to around a $4bn offset.

The US/Boeing offer was a transferred-tech deal that directly shook out
to
about $3.2bn once the US government gave Boeing a $250m subsidy to reduce
the overall price, but was closer to $6bn in linked defence and economic
loans. The bottom line from the US was "If you don't buy our fighter,
we're
not going to give you these loans. Oh, and we're currently reviewing your
most-favoured-nation trade status. No pressure!"

No Rafales. It was, and is, inferior to the F-15

The F-35 has zero - nil - export sales. A number of foreign governments,
including the UK, are contributing financially to the development process
as
partners... but no-one has actually bought the aircraft yet, including
the
US. All the 'partner nations' get for their money is technological
information and, in the case of the UK, component production contracts.
After all, Bush might still cancel it to pay for his adventure in Iraq.

Do try to keep up!

Matt

There are 3000+ orders for the F-35. They have not been paid for,
because payment is due on delivery.

It will not be canceled, the war on terrorism is expensive, but the US
is quite capable of affording it without impacting other programs

The UK is planning on replacing its excellent, but old, Harrier
fleet with the F-35


Not strictly true. This is the current favourite for the job, but it has
not been set in stone yet (and knowing British politics it won't be for a
while)

Mister minyard's logic:

Rafale is **** compared to F.35,because it has not been exported at he
moment.ok
So,Rafale is also inferior to Mirage 2000!...
Same logic,same result: F.22 is hit because it has not been exported yet
(and will probably remain ****).And it's
also inferior to F.16!....
And let's go:
-F.14 is inferior to Mirage F.1 because it has been less exported
-F.106 was ........ Mig.17 ............
-Viggen is .......... Su.22
-F.15 is ............... Mig.29 ............
-................

What a specialist we got here!
The rule is: the more a plane is purchased by foreign countries,the better
it is! YES!

Tell it to the Korean militaries,they've liked your "diplomatic"
reasons,cancelling technical results...
And in the same time,ask the F.14 and F.18 pilots that were on the Vinson
last year what they think about the "****-Rafale".
If you got time left,have a tour in Taïwan,they've got "****-Mirage
2000-5",that have already been opposed to F.16 during
some exercices.They'll tell you about it...



"Alan Minyard" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 07:36:44 -0000, "killfile"
wrote:

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 04:04:47 -0000, "Matt" wrote:

Just the standard 'blah blah America superior to the rest of the world
in
absolutely every respect blah blah" Al post.

The Rafale is a nice aircraft, and excellent value when you take it's
weapon
systems - MICA, SCALP-EG, etc - into account. The Republic of Korea's
Air
Force wanted the Rafale with uprated engines, but since the US offered
the
F-15K with economic offsets that actually outweigh the price of the
contract
(i..e. they essentially payed the Koreans to take it), they went for
that
instead. Suprise!

The F-15K is a very nice aircraft, but the base airframe is getting on
in
years.

Matt

The Rafale has ZERO export sales, despite offsets equal to any offered
by the US. The F-35 has thousands. Do try to keep up.

Al Minyard

Nice to see you completely failed to do any research whatsoever before
opening your ass, I mean, mouth.

The Rafale deal offered to South Korea was essentially a licensed
production
deal, with Dassault offering to transfer an entire Rafale production line
to
Seoul. France would build the first few aircraft, and then provide a few
limited components once the line was established. In the end, it worked
out
to around a $4bn offset.

The US/Boeing offer was a transferred-tech deal that directly shook out
to
about $3.2bn once the US government gave Boeing a $250m subsidy to reduce
the overall price, but was closer to $6bn in linked defence and economic
loans. The bottom line from the US was "If you don't buy our fighter,
we're
not going to give you these loans. Oh, and we're currently reviewing your
most-favoured-nation trade status. No pressure!"

No Rafales. It was, and is, inferior to the F-15

The F-35 has zero - nil - export sales. A number of foreign governments,
including the UK, are contributing financially to the development process
as
partners... but no-one has actually bought the aircraft yet, including
the
US. All the 'partner nations' get for their money is technological
information and, in the case of the UK, component production contracts.
After all, Bush might still cancel it to pay for his adventure in Iraq.

Do try to keep up!

Matt

There are 3000+ orders for the F-35. They have not been paid for,
because payment is due on delivery.

It will not be canceled, the war on terrorism is expensive, but the US
is quite capable of affording it without impacting other programs

The UK is planning on replacing its excellent, but old, Harrier
fleet with the F-35

Al Minyard

--
_________________________________________
Pierre-Henri BARAS

Co-webmaster de French Fleet Air Arm
http://www.ffaa.net
Encyclopédie de l'Aviation sur le web
http://www.aviation-fr.info

"Alan Minyard" a écrit dans le message de news:
...

The Republic of Korea Air Force seem to think that the Rafale is superior
to
the F-15 and F-16, as well as the Su-35 and Eurofighter.

Oh, that must be why they bought the F-35 instead of the rafale.

Gee, they're gonna be disappointed when they get F-15Ks instead of
F-35s......

--
_________________________________________
Pierre-Henri BARAS

Co-webmaster de French Fleet Air Arm
http://www.ffaa.net
Encyclopédie de l'Aviation sur le web
http://www.aviation-fr.info

Pierre-Henri Baras wrote :

Grounded? The Rafale?? Errr, you're confusing the Rafale with the
Eurofighter. The Rafale never crashed, and wasn't grounded unlike
the Eurofighter.
As for ACM, the Rafale M flew against the Carl Vinson air wing
last year: humiliated the F-14 (I'm sorry to say this as I love
the Turkey) and rapidly disposed of the F-18 that put up a better
fight than the F-14, but eventually gave in.

I don't try anymore to find any logic or truth in Al's posts ...

Mike wrote :

The F-22 would kill all of them before they knew it was there.

bla bla bla

Remember me when the Crotale french SAM and Shahine saudi SAM detected
the F117 during the 1st gulf war ...

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 07:47:14 -0000, "killfile"
wrote:


"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
.. .
On 2 Nov 2003 19:13:22 -0800, (robert arndt) wrote:

Alan Minyard wrote in message
...
On 2 Nov 2003 02:39:53 -0800, (robert arndt)
wrote:

(Tom R. Rastell) wrote in message
.com...
because the French are frogs and frogs can´t fly!


Oh really? Then please explain why Americans were flying French a/c
in
WW1. Ever heard of the Lafayette Escadrille? Nieuport or Spad ring
any
bells? Moron.

Rob

Let's see, 85 years ago some US pilots flew French aircraft, so
current
French
aircraft must be wonderful. Really strange logic at work there.

Current French aircraft, while not exactly "crap", are not state of
the
art and
are clearly inferior to their US counterparts.

Al Minyard

Funny how the French had the Dewoitine D.520 and M.S.406 during the
first year of the war and how good they were. The M.S.406 while
inferior to the Me-109E still racked up 175 kills from 1939-40. The
D.520 OTOH was the best French fighter up until the surrender and was
certainly equal to the Spitfire and Me-109 of the time.
After WW2, the French sold many of their aircraft to the Israelis who
racked up more kills and got a lot of mileage out of the aircraft
against the Arabs: Ouragan, Mystere, Super Mystere, Vautour, and
Mirage.
Currently the French have the Mirage 2000 and Rafale, both very
capable aircraft.
You just don't like anything foreign Al.

Rob

Not when they are clearly inferior. The F-15, F-16, F-14. F-35 and F-22
are all clearly superior to anything ever produced in France. And
quoting unverified numbers from a war that France lost in record time
does little to bolster your case.

Look at the export sales of the Rafale compared to the export sales
of the F-35.

Al Minyard

The Republic of Korea Air Force seem to think that the Rafale is superior
to
the F-15 and F-16, as well as the Su-35 and Eurofighter.

Oh, that must be why they bought the F-35 instead of the rafale.

The clearest thing is that nothing is superior to the *price* of the F-22
... I'll certainly bet the six Rafales or Eurofighters you could get the
price of one F-22 against that lone F-22 in combat.

The F-22 would kill all of them before they knew it was there.

Al Minyard

YOU ARE ENTERING ... THE AL MINYARD ZONE

DO DO DOO DO DOO DO DO DOO

How is one F/A-22 going to kill six Rafales? If you ask any USAF pilot if
you'd get Six-Shots, Six-Kills with the AIM-120, they'd laugh in your face.

And don't start talking about dogfighting ... the F/A-22 is a tennis court
with wings. It has serious high-alpha stall problems and the thrust
vectoring is still not flight-certified. The Rafale would dance circles
around it.

Matt

In article ,
"killfile" wrote:

How is one F/A-22 going to kill six Rafales?

By calling on his two wingmen, of course.

Unless the Rafales are selling for less than $30 million each, of course.

Parts, support, and training included.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.