Moonless Night Claims Two Senior CAP Officers

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:35:02 GMT, wrote in
:

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 18:32:32 -0800, "BT" wrote
in :

What would the moon or lack of it have to do with this.

I'm thinking the new moon would make the terrain difficult to see.

I take it you've never flown in the southwestern desert areas.


Pilots who reside on the west coast who don't fly over the desert have
precious little else to fly over, given that the Pacific covers the
western half of the area, and the Mojave desert surrounds the
populated areas to the east. So, of course I've flown over
unpopulated areas at night. With a full moon on a clear night, I find
it easy to see the terrain. It's actually quite a lovely sight.

With a new moon over the deserted desert, you're effectively on
instruments, or you should be.

Under a full moon the terrain is difficult to see.

Our opinions differ.

Under much less than a full moon the terrain is impossible to see.

Effectively, yes. That's why I thought the new moon may have
contributed to this mishap.

I Follow Roads is the only visual reference you have.

Of course, that only works if there is traffic with headlights lit on
the desert road, and it's still no substitute for _through_ flight
planning before departure, and radar advisories en route. Those pesky
F-16s are impossible to see-and-avoid at night.

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:35:02 GMT, wrote in
:

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 18:32:32 -0800, "BT" wrote
in :

What would the moon or lack of it have to do with this.

I'm thinking the new moon would make the terrain difficult to see.

I take it you've never flown in the southwestern desert areas.


Pilots who reside on the west coast who don't fly over the desert have
precious little else to fly over, given that the Pacific covers the
western half of the area, and the Mojave desert surrounds the
populated areas to the east. So, of course I've flown over
unpopulated areas at night. With a full moon on a clear night, I find
it easy to see the terrain. It's actually quite a lovely sight.

With a new moon over the deserted desert, you're effectively on
instruments, or you should be.

Under a full moon the terrain is difficult to see.

Our opinions differ.

With a full moon on a clear night and a clean, clear windscreen, I
agree you can see the desert terrain.

With anything less, such as a cloudy, old windscreen as found on most
rentals, good luck.

Under much less than a full moon the terrain is impossible to see.

Effectively, yes. That's why I thought the new moon may have
contributed to this mishap.

I Follow Roads is the only visual reference you have.

Of course, that only works if there is traffic with headlights lit on
the desert road, and it's still no substitute for _through_ flight
planning before departure, and radar advisories en route. Those pesky
F-16s are impossible to see-and-avoid at night.

I agree with the planning part, but there is lots of desert area where
you can't get radar or comm unless you are really high, in which case
you don't really need to worry much about peaks.

Unless you have an airplane that climbs really well, you will lose
communications with Las Vegas app/dep climbing out from Henderson
for a while because of the hills around Vegas for example.

And it seems that (departure and approach) is when most of these
accidents occur; not at a good cruise altitude and can't see much.

BTW, there is always traffic on the freeways 24/7/365.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 13:46:35 -0500, "Marco Leon"
wrote:


That said, I almost always fly under IFR at night

Same here...

On Nov 13, 10:20 pm, "Watson" wrote:
wrote in message

ups.com...

On Nov 13, 3:21 pm, "Watson" wrote:
I refused a visual mountain search at night for a found out later to be a
false ELT. I was a Mountain Mission Pilot with CAP for some 20 odd
years.
I and my squadron were punished for the refusal. "I order you to fly
this
search!" No, thank you. Be happy to launch at first light.

No longer with them.

Since you were with CAP for 20 years, you are aware (and others might
not be) that all members are volunteers, and each and every mission is
a volunteer mission that can be refused because it is unsafe, or you
are tired, or your dog is sick.

I understand that, too bad it did not work as advertised in the real world.

It *usually* does, but not always. Clearly, in your case, it did
not.


Sorry we lost you.

I'm not.
I'm not surprised. It's still too bad that some folks are screwing
things up that bad somewhere. I'm still sorry we lost you.

snip of some bad happenings

These are some of the many horror stories. I can't beleive they have pulled
the wool over their funding agencies eyes; the state legislatures and US
Congress, for so long.

Crap happens. I've heard of some in my local wing. Most of us work
what we can against it, and hang around to do the job. Actually, the
negative things in CAP aren't much different than the negative things
in most other organizations I've been in or observed. "They" isn't
everyone; and most are volunteering their time and resources even
though things aren't perfect. That's why they still have the support
of the states and Congress.

wrote in
:



Crap happens. I've heard of some in my local wing. Most of us work
what we can against it, and hang around to do the job. Actually, the
negative things in CAP aren't much different than the negative things
in most other organizations I've been in or observed. "They" isn't
everyone; and most are volunteering their time and resources even
though things aren't perfect.


That's true, but the percentage is much higher..

I was being harangued into joining a chapter years ago because I had a lot
of big tailwheel time and they had a very beat up Otter they wanted to fly.
Most of them were OK and at least they actually were attempting aviation,
but they still had so much crap going on anyone in their right mind would
run a mile.
Then they got an AT-11 that "needed a bit of work" I wanted a personal
notam if the thing ever got flying (fortunatley it didn't) so's I could
rapidly get out of its operational range in case it fell on me.


Bertie

On Nov 14, 12:28 pm, "JGalban via AviationKB.com" u32749@uwe wrote:
The use of MAP mode is actually required in mountanous terain.

Aren't airliners flying IFR? Terrain avoidance is built in to instrument
procedures (assuming you follow the rules). I've also never seen a 396/496
handheld in an airliner cockpit.
John, first, I didnt realize you flew for the airlines sorry. Second,
for everyone elses benefit, I was refering to the terain database on
the ND, I am sorry for the confusion. To clarify further, the type of
flight plan does not dictate the use of the MAP mode, it is the terain
you are flying over that does. Hey I dont make the rules {G}.

On Nov 14, 7:48 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote :



Crap happens. I've heard of some in my local wing. Most of us work
what we can against it, and hang around to do the job. Actually, the
negative things in CAP aren't much different than the negative things
in most other organizations I've been in or observed. "They" isn't
everyone; and most are volunteering their time and resources even
though things aren't perfect.

That's true, but the percentage is much higher..

I was being harangued into joining a chapter years ago because I had a lot
of big tailwheel time and they had a very beat up Otter they wanted to fly.
Most of them were OK and at least they actually were attempting aviation,
but they still had so much crap going on anyone in their right mind would
run a mile.
Then they got an AT-11 that "needed a bit of work" I wanted a personal
notam if the thing ever got flying (fortunatley it didn't) so's I could
rapidly get out of its operational range in case it fell on me.

Bertie

First, from you a couple days ago:
Most of them are little tinpot power freaks who are too crazy to get
clearance to be security gaurds at pillsbury bakeoff.
Now,
Most of them were OK...

So, basically, you left because you didn't like their airplane and now
they are all bad guys.
Wrong.

There are some power freaks and politicos, like everywhere. Most are
guys like me. We volunteer to go looking for people and stuff when
needed, pay for the training to do so, and put in lots of time. Many
of the services are other than SAR. When you carelessly paint with a
broad brush, you do a disservice to an awful lot of good people.

Maybe they don't miss you. You call people names way too often to be
good company.

wrote in
:

On Nov 14, 7:48 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote
innews:0f8d0846-1c91-4bd1-bacc-

om:



Crap happens. I've heard of some in my local wing. Most of us
work what we can against it, and hang around to do the job.
Actually, the negative things in CAP aren't much different than the
negative things in most other organizations I've been in or
observed. "They" isn't everyone; and most are volunteering their
time and resources even though things aren't perfect.

That's true, but the percentage is much higher..

I was being harangued into joining a chapter years ago because I had
a lot of big tailwheel time and they had a very beat up Otter they
wanted to fly. Most of them were OK and at least they actually were
attempting aviation, but they still had so much crap going on anyone
in their right mind would run a mile.
Then they got an AT-11 that "needed a bit of work" I wanted a
personal notam if the thing ever got flying (fortunatley it didn't)
so's I could rapidly get out of its operational range in case it fell
on me.

Bertie

First, from you a couple days ago:
Most of them are little tinpot power freaks who are too crazy to get
clearance to be security gaurds at pillsbury bakeoff.
Now,
Most of them were OK...

So, basically, you left because you didn't like their airplane and now
they are all bad guys.

Nope.


Wrong.

There are some power freaks and politicos, like everywhere.


Yep, but not a few.

Most are
guys like me.

Not in any squadron I've come across.


We volunteer to go looking for people and stuff when
needed, pay for the training to do so, and put in lots of time. Many
of the services are other than SAR. When you carelessly paint with a
broad brush, you do a disservice to an awful lot of good people.


Nope, the good ones are great. Just not many of them.


Maybe they don't miss you.

Dunno.


You call people names way too often to be
good company.



Mebbe, besides the point, though.


Bertie

wrote in
:

On Nov 14, 7:48 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote
innews:0f8d0846-1c91-4bd1-bacc-

om:



Crap happens. I've heard of some in my local wing. Most of us
work what we can against it, and hang around to do the job.
Actually, the negative things in CAP aren't much different than the
negative things in most other organizations I've been in or
observed. "They" isn't everyone; and most are volunteering their
time and resources even though things aren't perfect.

That's true, but the percentage is much higher..

I was being harangued into joining a chapter years ago because I had
a lot of big tailwheel time and they had a very beat up Otter they
wanted to fly. Most of them were OK and at least they actually were
attempting aviation, but they still had so much crap going on anyone
in their right mind would run a mile.
Then they got an AT-11 that "needed a bit of work" I wanted a
personal notam if the thing ever got flying (fortunatley it didn't)
so's I could rapidly get out of its operational range in case it fell
on me.

Bertie

First, from you a couple days ago:
Most of them are little tinpot power freaks who are too crazy to get
clearance to be security gaurds at pillsbury bakeoff.
Now,
Most of them were OK...

So, basically, you left because you didn't like their airplane and now
they are all bad guys.


Oh, and BTW, I didn't dislike either of those airplanes.


You missed the point.



Bertie

On Nov 15, 8:55 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote :

On Nov 14, 7:48 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote
innews:0f8d0846-1c91-4bd1-bacc-







om:

Crap happens. I've heard of some in my local wing. Most of us
work what we can against it, and hang around to do the job.
Actually, the negative things in CAP aren't much different than the
negative things in most other organizations I've been in or
observed. "They" isn't everyone; and most are volunteering their
time and resources even though things aren't perfect.

That's true, but the percentage is much higher..

I was being harangued into joining a chapter years ago because I had
a lot of big tailwheel time and they had a very beat up Otter they
wanted to fly. Most of them were OK and at least they actually were
attempting aviation, but they still had so much crap going on anyone
in their right mind would run a mile.
Then they got an AT-11 that "needed a bit of work" I wanted a
personal notam if the thing ever got flying (fortunatley it didn't)
so's I could rapidly get out of its operational range in case it fell
on me.

Bertie

First, from you a couple days ago:
Most of them are little tinpot power freaks who are too crazy to get
clearance to be security gaurds at pillsbury bakeoff.
Now,
Most of them were OK...

So, basically, you left because you didn't like their airplane and now
they are all bad guys.

Oh, and BTW, I didn't dislike either of those airplanes.

You missed the point.

Bertie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Once again I am with Bertie on this topic. I don't know who
is but I would love for you to research the Wyoming
wing, look at all the deaths, pay close attention to the structuring
of the organization, count two destroyed panes and four body bags in
the last couple of years and come back and argue to Bertie and me
about how functional the CAP really is. Granted there are a few good
guys in it, The local CAP top dog here in Jackson, whose name is Bill
is a good friend and a great pilot. I would not hesitate to fall
asleep while he is flying. The rest are scary at best and deadly at
worst. When I joined a few years back I read the criteria for what
their members needed to conform to. One was weight/height,,, or
overall decent health. The wing commander was overweight to the point
of being a poster child for a heart attack.. I went to a SAREX to
qualify for the spotter, scanner and position myself for a mission
pilot spot and 75% of the members needed Jenny Craig on their speed
dial... They seemed to want to belittle me to prevent me from getting
to the front seats, ie, scanner/ mission pilot and relinquish me to
the rear of the plane. This tactic was to keep from sharing their
plane with an outsider. That was my last dealing with those idiots. If
you are truly a dedicated CAP member who wants to help and doesn't
play those games then I take my hat off to ya and wish you well. Your
move.........................

Ben
www.haaspowerair.com